Crown Questions

[The Crisco Kid]

My experience with PTG was that they tried to sell me what they thought I needed, not what I knew I needed. Dave Manson reamers was great when I was building unmentionables.

 

[longcruise]

You would have it for life.

You can use it on other caliber bores with just a twelve dollar bushing change.

You could even rent it out to forum members to help offset the cost.

But, yes, they are expensive.

Good luck with it.

I'm leaning more all the time.

 

[longcruise]

@64Springer I see that the bushings fit a range so they must be adjustable which also means they should be able to be fitted to allow minor variations in bore diameter.

 

[SDSmlf]

Buy a crowning tool and bushing from Pacific Tool and Gage.

A ball bearing will follow the same lines you already have.

What you need is a cutter that's concentric with the bore.

From personal experience, suggest not ordering directly from PTG, rather order through a place like MidwayUSA. PTG makes some great stuff, but even if they mess up they charge a 30% or 40% restocking fee, couple that with their you get it when you get it attitude, just can’t recommend.

 

[SDSmlf]

Here's a crown that I'm contemplating how to solve. If you look carefully you can see that it was cut with the barrel out of alignment with the tool. Probably with the barrel stationary.

I've smoothed and cleaned up quite a few crowns but never one that was off center like this one. I don't have a lathe, etc., as some do so what might be a good approach for this one. So far I'm liking @SDSmlf method with ball bearings but I'm open to all suggestions.

View attachment 242013

I would shoot it before doing much, except maybe a quick polish with fine wet paper and your thumb if you want, or the ball bearing treatment if you have the supplies. Understand what you are starting with. If it shoots, you are done except for cutesying things up, if not proceed.

Full truth, I do the ball bearing thing at the muzzle and a Scotch Brite treatment on the bore of any new or new to me barrel. This helps make for easier loading and cleaning, and all but eliminates damaged patches if shooting patched roundball. Will not hurt and many times helps accuracy. If the muzzle is woppyjawed, I may put the barrel in a lathe and square things up, but have found that it is not always necessary for the guns and loads we shoot. You have to shoot it to know.

 

[DementedMindOfJac]

There are other patching materials that work well: pocket drill, denim, canvas duck and even matress ticking goes about .017" or so.

The Englisher Greenjackets used thin greased leather patches in their Bakers for long range Frenchers. It does make sense to me as the thicker compressed patch should give a slightly larger bearing surface to the projectile than the thinner one. Larger bearing surface would engage rifling more effectively. While I've not seen any these Napoleonic patches, I'd go out on a limb an' guess they weren't no .017". Then again, a Baker's bore ain't no .45" neither, so it pr'olly forgives a way thicker patch.

 

[Dixieshedhunter]

TTT for reference. Ball bearing and sandpaper method page 2. 120/180 up to 1000. Bearing under sandpaper flat on floor.
PD.

 

[Dixieshedhunter]

x

 

[Relic shooter]

The Englisher Greenjackets used thin greased leather patches in their Bakers for long range Frenchers. It does make sense to me as the thicker compressed patch should give a slightly larger bearing surface to the projectile than the thinner one. Larger bearing surface would engage rifling more effectively. While I've not seen any these Napoleonic patches, I'd go out on a limb an' guess they weren't no .017". Then again, a Baker's bore ain't no .45" neither, so it pr'olly forgives a way thicker patch.

Greased leather/buckskin patches were commonly used;
During the past few decades of collecting & shooting original firearms I run across several guns still loaded with greased leather patches & a couple still remaining in shooting bags.
Use of tanned greased leather/buckskin patches good sense to obtain the best accuracy in original firearms that featured much deeper rifling than todays' replicas.
I've had excellent results & accuracy using beargrease on brain tanned buckskin patches with my original Jaeger rifles.
Also had good results shooting soft lead round cast 45/70 slugs a Whitworth with these patches.
Relic shooter

 

[Steve Wagner]

Greased leather/buckskin patches were commonly used;
During the past few decades of collecting & shooting original firearms I run across several guns still loaded with greased leather patches & a couple still remaining in shooting bags.
Use of tanned greased leather/buckskin patches good sense to obtain the best accuracy in original firearms that featured much deeper rifling than todays' replicas.
I've had excellent results & accuracy using beargrease on brain tanned buckskin patches with my original Jaeger rifles.
Also had good results shooting soft lead round cast 45/70 slugs a Whitworth with these patches.
Relic shooter

That makes sense and shows how, with a specialty rifle like a Whitworth, necessity can be the mother of invention. Some tanned leathers and buckskins have a compressibility [softness] that pure cotton does not, which lends it to a good seal without the same effort to load. Adding a lube will expand it more and and make for a tight gas seal and good fit to the rifling. This would make them really useful for a Whitworth barrel.
Kudos to you for figuring that out if you did not learn it from someone else. Even if self learned, I bet if you went back to Whitworth owners after the WBTS, many that could not make or obtain the correct bullets figured this out. After over 40 years in the same trade, whenever I come up with a method I think is my own, I work with someone who does the same and either learned it from another, or thought they were the originators as well.
Just curious, Relic, did you use/try a card under the patch with the Whitworth ?
SW

 

[Relic shooter]

That makes sense and shows how, with a specialty rifle like a Whitworth, necessity can be the mother of invention. Some tanned leathers and buckskins have a compressibility [softness] that pure cotton does not, which lends it to a good seal without the same effort to load. Adding a lube will expand it more and and make for a tight gas seal and good fit to the rifling. This would make them really useful for a Whitworth barrel.
Kudos to you for figuring that out if you did not learn it from someone else. Even if self learned, I bet if you went back to Whitworth owners after the WBTS, many that could not make or obtain the correct bullets figured this out. After over 40 years in the same trade, whenever I come up with a method I think is my own, I work with someone who does the same and either learned it from another, or thought they were the originators as well.
Just curious, Relic, did you use/try a card under the patch with the Whitworth ?
SW

Hi Steve, sounds like you've been shooting a good while.
Yes I neglected to mention that I always placed a card wad under projectiles I shot with muzzleloaders & unmentionables such as Sharps rifles.
The wad does a good job protecting the slugs base while it stabilizes & expands into into the rifling.
Placing a wad over the powder when loading lubed patched round balls prior to going big game hunting also prevents chance of the lube contaminating the charge if left loaded over a few days or weeks.
Wish you & yours a Merry Christmas,
Relic shooter aka Chuck

 

[Steve Wagner]

Well, Relic, I have been shooting firearms since a young boy and reloading unmentionables for 30 years. But I have only been muzzleloading for a little over a year and learning more every chance I get from people like you. Many of the principles are common to each, but others are definitely not, and good mentors like you are really helpful.
For my 50 cal. conical loads for hunting, I have been placing a lead ball sized piece of cotton ball under a card and pushing them all together down to the charge for exactly the reasons you mention. Hasn't changed my accuracy. I probably learned this from you or another sage here.
Thank you Chuck and Merry Christmas to you and all of yours,
Steve

 

[Relic shooter]

Well, Relic, I have been shooting firearms since a young boy and reloading unmentionables for 30 years. But I have only been muzzleloading for a little over a year and learning more every chance I get from people like you. Many of the principles are common to each, but others are definitely not, and good mentors like you are really helpful.
For my 50 cal. conical loads for hunting, I have been placing a lead ball sized piece of cotton ball under a card and pushing them all together down to the charge for exactly the reasons you mention. Hasn't changed my accuracy. I probably learned this from you or another sage here.
Thank you Chuck and Merry Christmas to you and all of yours,
Steve

Thanks for the kind words Steve,
I think most of us old guys were fortunate to learn much from others who wanted to pass along their knowledge to keep our historical sport alive.
Wishing you & yours a very Merry Christmas !
Chuck aka Relic shooter

 

[M. De Land]

Actually, a perfect muzzle face and crown are done on a lathe after the barrel has been straightened or verified to be straight and then set up through the headstock of a lathe with a 4-jaw chuck inboard and a matching "spider" or "cat's paw" on the outboard side so that the barrel can be indicated perfectly true to the bore centerline on both ends via test indicator and close-fitting pin gauges.

However, in most cases the skilled use of a file and brass laps suffices.

If it's really hosed, squaring and coning will fix it.

Well that is good theory but practice will show that most bores are not perfectly straight or equal-distant to the exterior flats or round. Often you can dial indicate both ends till your blue in the face then remove the plug gauges, look down bore with a slowly revolving head stock and the bore looks like a jump rope inside. This quite often in very high quality barrels.
When deep hole boring once the best drilling RPM is established the bit is mainly influenced by three factors, consistency of the barrel steel, sharpness of the bit and oil pressure to remove the swarf which needs increase as the hole deepens to keep boring on center. A bored hole can be tangentially off center or arched off center any where along it's path should one of the above circumstances be encountered. This is why we orientate a barrel vertically when building them as elevation off center is far easier to correct and is less noticeable than windage off center. The same is true when index threading them for receivers in modern barrel mounting.

 

[IanH]

Well that is good theory but practice will show that most bores are not perfectly straight or equal-distant to the exterior flats or round. Often you can dial indicate both ends till your blue in the face then remove the plug gauges, look down bore with a slowly revolving head stock and the bore looks like a jump rope inside. This quite often in very high quality barrels.
When deep hole boring once the best drilling RPM is established the bit is mainly influenced by three factors, consistency of the barrel steel, sharpness of the bit and oil pressure to remove the swarf which needs increase as the hole deepens to keep boring on center. A bored hole can be tangentially off center or arched off center any where along it's path should one of the above circumstances be encountered. This is why we orientate a barrel vertically when building them as elevation off center is far easier to correct and is less noticeable than windage off center. The same is true when index threading them for receivers in modern barrel mounting.

If that is the case I bend the barrel until the bore is straight and set it up again.