Crushing the Load, Seating and Accuracy

[necchi]

In any of my 3 "new to me" revolvers,, whilst loading I can crush the load a bunch with the seater.

Now I'm still experimenting trying to find the most accuracy from these critters, I'll use the 44 1858 Remmy as an example.
Brass frame so I wanna stick with low charges, 22grns of Pyro-P, I'm using a pre-lube wad over the charge an the ball is cutting a ring when seated.

Now I've noticed when using that loading lever I have a variable;
* I can squeeze that ball all the way down, crushing the wad and powder with a big gap tween the ball an barrel
* Or I can just seat the ball shallower with it close to the top of the chamber,,
* Or I can leave it with just some space,,

Yesterday I tried two wads over the powder, squeezed it pretty hard but the ball was higher in the chamber and the group was better.

Whats the key here? What am I missing that's common for loading the revolver?

 

[biliff]

FWIW, Pyrodex needs a good "crunch" or you get a noticeable delay when firing.

If you want to cut down on the distance to the forcing cone, some corn meal or grits can be used as filler. Lots cheaper than wads.

 

[necchi]

OK,
Got Cream of Wheat handy,

Now does a feller use some COW to bring the load up a bit , THEN, the wad?
Or does the COW eliminate the need for a wad?

 

[biliff]

You can skip the wad.

 

[rafterob]

I use corn meal as it doesn't seem to compress as much as COW. I measure my load of 20 grains into the cylinder and then top it off with filler. Place the ball on and ram it firmly. This usually rests the ball just below the cylinder face. Accuracy is another issue for me and my revolver, but I don't practice enough with it so I accept that fact.

 

[rafterob]

I use corn meal as it doesn't seem to compress as much as COW. I measure my load of 20 grains into the cylinder and then top it off with filler. Place the ball on and ram it firmly. This usually rests the ball just below the cylinder face. Accuracy is another issue for me and my revolver, but I don't practice enough with it so I accept that fact.

 

[nkbj]

Many years ago I developed a loading technique for a 1861 that amounted to swaging a conical to form, in the cylinder, using the powder as a surface to support the slug. Now, I am not proposing anyone try it, just telling what I did about 1979 or so. The results were accuracy and power in a .36.
In retrospect I believe that the revolver having a chamber diameter the same as the groove diameter is why it worked so well. The conicals were cast in a Lee 9mm mold that had been hogged out with a 3/8" bit. After casting they were beveled on the base by hand, rolling them between two pieces of formica (using the back surface with the grain on it). In the chambers the conicals were smooshed into wadcutters with mangly noses. And they shot great.
So, that's what I did then.

 

[nkbj]

Many years ago I developed a loading technique for a 1861 that amounted to swaging a conical to form, in the cylinder, using the powder as a surface to support the slug. Now, I am not proposing anyone try it, just telling what I did about 1979 or so. The results were accuracy and power in a .36.
In retrospect I believe that the revolver having a chamber diameter the same as the groove diameter is why it worked so well. The conicals were cast in a Lee 9mm mold that had been hogged out with a 3/8" bit. After casting they were beveled on the base by hand, rolling them between two pieces of formica (using the back surface with the grain on it). In the chambers the conicals were smooshed into wadcutters with mangly noses. And they shot great.
So, that's what I did then.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I shoot only black. I do compress the load slightly. When pressing the ball into the chamber, after it shears the ring, You can feel a gritty crunch when loading directly over the powder. I use a grease over the ball to lube the bore before the ball slides through.

I don't usually use a filler, but have used COW directly over the powder. Caused a few raised eye brows when loading the COW directly from a flask. They thought it was charge powder, and I suppose the powdery COW could burn nastily. Now I would just use a "Lee" type powder dipper and a small tin of COW.

As far as accuracy, I suspect, but haven't actually tested, that there is a slight increase in accuracy when the ball is just seated enough into the chamber that the cylinder will turn in the gun. If the ball is seated a distance into the chamber it seems like it would be like a centerfire chamber with too much free bore and accuracy would be loss with the long jump into the rifling.

Although I like the appearance of the colt repros more, I have never been able to get decent accuracy from them compared to a Remington style repro. I have shot five shot - 3 inch groups with a Remmie style and full loads at 25yds. Can't get but about 7 or 8 inches tops with a colt repro.

Once saw a guy that shot alot of skirmishes shoot a really nice under 2 inch group with a walker repro. (Who knows what he had done to that gun and how much practicing he did to get it there.)

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I shoot only black. I do compress the load slightly. When pressing the ball into the chamber, after it shears the ring, You can feel a gritty crunch when loading directly over the powder. I use a grease over the ball to lube the bore before the ball slides through.

I don't usually use a filler, but have used COW directly over the powder. Caused a few raised eye brows when loading the COW directly from a flask. They thought it was charge powder, and I suppose the powdery COW could burn nastily. Now I would just use a "Lee" type powder dipper and a small tin of COW.

As far as accuracy, I suspect, but haven't actually tested, that there is a slight increase in accuracy when the ball is just seated enough into the chamber that the cylinder will turn in the gun. If the ball is seated a distance into the chamber it seems like it would be like a centerfire chamber with too much free bore and accuracy would be loss with the long jump into the rifling.

Although I like the appearance of the colt repros more, I have never been able to get decent accuracy from them compared to a Remington style repro. I have shot five shot - 3 inch groups with a Remmie style and full loads at 25yds. Can't get but about 7 or 8 inches tops with a colt repro.

Once saw a guy that shot alot of skirmishes shoot a really nice under 2 inch group with a walker repro. (Who knows what he had done to that gun and how much practicing he did to get it there.)

 

[necchi]

Well right now best I can get is 5" at 20yrds with a two hand hold.
I guess I do need a bunch more practice.

It takes a Looong time to load these things,
(I'm thinking I need a proper loading stand)

What I like about the Rem so far is the caps don't jam up like they do in the Colts.

Looks like I just hafta put the time in experimenting and learning,,

 

[necchi]

Well right now best I can get is 5" at 20yrds with a two hand hold.
I guess I do need a bunch more practice.

It takes a Looong time to load these things,
(I'm thinking I need a proper loading stand)

What I like about the Rem so far is the caps don't jam up like they do in the Colts.

Looks like I just hafta put the time in experimenting and learning,,

 

[rafterob]

What I like about the Rem so far is the caps don't jam up like they do in the Colts

It still happens, maybe you just haven't shot it enough yet. I have discovered that if I cock the hammer with quick, even force the incidence of jammed caps decreases dramatically. I can get 5" groups too...5" high, 5" low, 5" wide :shake:

 

[rafterob]

What I like about the Rem so far is the caps don't jam up like they do in the Colts

It still happens, maybe you just haven't shot it enough yet. I have discovered that if I cock the hammer with quick, even force the incidence of jammed caps decreases dramatically. I can get 5" groups too...5" high, 5" low, 5" wide :shake:

 

[aeatwood]

Pretty much any of mine will do sub-2" with the load they like. The one exception is one of my Uberti 2nd Dragoons, but that gun has issues.

I got accuracy as you were describing til I switched from .451" to .454", a d from 3f to 2f. Accuracy loads are pretty much enough 2f to just allow wad to be seated on powder with wnough clearance to allow bal to be started w/o interference. Then a good tight ramming pressure. 3f likes to just be seated firmly, 2f wants a good bit more. Pyro wants about as much as you can do w/o bending the rammer - about 80 lbs of compression.

You also need some lube. Helps keep fouling soft and cuts down on leading. Even w/ CoW, you need a lubed wad or grease over the ball. I do not like using extra fillers - more stuff to carry. I use wads to take up the space, or just more 2f. I actualy carry mine around farm or in woods, so want as much accuracy and as little fuss as possible.

 

[aeatwood]

Pretty much any of mine will do sub-2" with the load they like. The one exception is one of my Uberti 2nd Dragoons, but that gun has issues.

I got accuracy as you were describing til I switched from .451" to .454", a d from 3f to 2f. Accuracy loads are pretty much enough 2f to just allow wad to be seated on powder with wnough clearance to allow bal to be started w/o interference. Then a good tight ramming pressure. 3f likes to just be seated firmly, 2f wants a good bit more. Pyro wants about as much as you can do w/o bending the rammer - about 80 lbs of compression.

You also need some lube. Helps keep fouling soft and cuts down on leading. Even w/ CoW, you need a lubed wad or grease over the ball. I do not like using extra fillers - more stuff to carry. I use wads to take up the space, or just more 2f. I actualy carry mine around farm or in woods, so want as much accuracy and as little fuss as possible.

 

[Gatofeo]

I load 1/8" felt wads I've punched from Durofelt hard felt, lubed with Gatofeo No. 1 Black Powder Lube that I make myself.
The lubricant was named after me by others. It's an exceptional lubricant for wads, patches and bullets.
My loading cycle is:
Pour in FFFG black powder.
Thumb in a lubricated felt wad.
Seat the felt wad firmly on the powder, stopping when I get a very slight crunch or feel the wad firmly -- but not hard -- on the powder.
Seat an oversized ball (.454 in my .44s, .380 in my .36s) firmly onto the wad. There is no need to reef down hard on the rammer, just ensure there's no space between the powder, wad and ball.
With lubricated felt wad twixt ball and powder, there is no need to put grease over the ball.
My Remingtons generally shoot well with the above. An exception is a 1973 Uberti .36 Remington with very shallow rifling, but the rifling is the bugaboo, not the load.
My Colt designs become inaccurate if the wedge is not tight in the frame.
Typically, on a clean, unfired Colt at the range, I tap in the wedge and rotate the cylinder at the same time.
When the barrel is so tight against the cylinder face that you can feel it drag ... STOP.
Now, tap the wedge out a little so it no longer drags. I've found that this is the condition in which my Colts are most accurate.
How accurate?
Most of them will put all balls into 2 to 2-1/2 inches at 25 yards, from a benchrest. They're probably more accurate than this, but all have that dismal notch in the hammer and brass front sight that is not conducive to pinpoint accuracy.
Someday, I'd like to somehow mount a pistol scope on a Colt cap and ball revolver, to dispel the myth that Colts aren't accurate.
The Remington has better sights, but with equal sights I feel the Colt would be as accurate as the Remington.
The only true test of accuracy is done from a benchrest at 25 yards, on a well-defined target.

 

[crockett]

Everyone seems to be saying 2 1/2" groups at 25 yards OFF A REST and that also is my experience. BTW- that 2 1/2" should be "average". You might get the occasional 1" or less group but what I am saying is that most groups will always be in that 2 1/2" or less range. Tinker around with the powder charge.
The feeling is that the closer the ball is to the end of the clyinder - the more accurate. A lot of folks use a filler but I am apparently different from other folks in the respect that I get the better accuracy from no filler and a lot more powder. The recoil may be slightly more but as long as you don't flinch the accuracy is often better. In any event, try a lot of different loads.
On the "crunch", you might crunch more on one load than another so the crunch becomes a variable. What I did was work up the best load and then I used a needle file to mark a thin line on the ram so that each ball gets seated to the same depth. I always get a slight crunch- I was told the crunch insures no dead air space. I use lubed wads, costs a little more but I like the convenience. I never cut corners on my shooting, I'd rather eat off the value menu at McD.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

for consistent "crunch", I have seen at least one cylinder loader with a spring indicator on the plunger.

 

[crockett]

That would probably be the ultimate method.