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CVA .54 Big Bore Accuracy Problems
- Thread starter deand
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SCATTERSHOT
40 Cal.
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Sorry, i only understand about half of what I see, must need new specs! :rotf:
A 1Foot group is a whole 'nuther ball game.
As others have said, try all natural lubes and cleaners.
A 1Foot group is a whole 'nuther ball game.
As others have said, try all natural lubes and cleaners.
MikeChapin
58 Cal.
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- Apr 5, 2005
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You've got a lot of good advice here and I guess I'll throw my two cents worth in.
When working up a load for a new rifle I start small from the bench. For a .54 I started at 40 gr FFFg and work my way up until the group is tight as possible. I then start messing with different size patches until the group tightens up to just about hole on hole at this range.
I then bench it at 50 and try for at least a cloverleaf at that range. This may or may not involve adjusting the load and patch combo a little more.
When I'm doing this I don't care where the group is. All I care about is the group size.
Noah mentioned that the barrel may need some breaking in and that is probably true though the Douglas barrel on the CVA should still shoot better than a spray pattern at 50 yards. It took 100 or so rounds to get my Mountain Rifle to start tightening up but it would keep a three or four inch group at 50 yards until the magic moment. Not really acceptable but not real terrible.
He also mentioned powder choice. I had that effect happen when I went from GEOX FFFg to KIK FFg. Most of the rest of my rifles had no problem but my Santa Fe had the groups open up. I ended up dropping back to a .515 ball with a thicker patch and the world was good again.
Right now I use 50 gr KIK FFg for 25 and 50 yards with 70 gr. for 100. The 70 gr load has dropped two elk within 100 yards so it has plenty of poop for BP ranges.
When working up a load for a new rifle I start small from the bench. For a .54 I started at 40 gr FFFg and work my way up until the group is tight as possible. I then start messing with different size patches until the group tightens up to just about hole on hole at this range.
I then bench it at 50 and try for at least a cloverleaf at that range. This may or may not involve adjusting the load and patch combo a little more.
When I'm doing this I don't care where the group is. All I care about is the group size.
Noah mentioned that the barrel may need some breaking in and that is probably true though the Douglas barrel on the CVA should still shoot better than a spray pattern at 50 yards. It took 100 or so rounds to get my Mountain Rifle to start tightening up but it would keep a three or four inch group at 50 yards until the magic moment. Not really acceptable but not real terrible.
He also mentioned powder choice. I had that effect happen when I went from GEOX FFFg to KIK FFg. Most of the rest of my rifles had no problem but my Santa Fe had the groups open up. I ended up dropping back to a .515 ball with a thicker patch and the world was good again.
Right now I use 50 gr KIK FFg for 25 and 50 yards with 70 gr. for 100. The 70 gr load has dropped two elk within 100 yards so it has plenty of poop for BP ranges.
On the CVA trigger group. Remove the trigger guard. There is a spring tension adjuster screw hidden behind the back trigger to adjust the spring tension for the rear set trigger engagement and throw. They are usaully set pretty heavy. You are not thru the break in period, so don't worry too much about accuracy yet. 80 grains is a fine sighting, practice, and hunting load for anything short of the very big critters like moose or bears. Clean the barrel completely clean with carburator cleaner keeping it well away from the stock because it will destroy finishes and swell wood. Once it is really clean, including all of the mystery lube, run a patch with a good grade protectant product and let it sit for a day or so. Dry patch it, run a patch with your lube of choice on it and do a shooting session. You may still be experiencing the results of the mystery lube.
Every gun is different.
Lube can make all the difference in guns. I have a 36 here that will not hit a paper plate consistantly at 30 yards if you wipe with Rusty duck between shots. With prelubed Bass Pro patches it is a tack driver.
I killed my last 6 deer with 70 grains under a 495 ball with no problems at all. One of them went well over 200 pounds and was hit at 60 yards quartering away out of a 24 inch barrel. No problem with any deer ever built with an 80 grain load under a 530. For the magnumitis crowd, my last problem shot with a muzzleloader was with a 50 caliber 385 hollow point conical over 100 grains of P. That is about twice the load I am using in energy. It is all about shot placement and a 50 grain 50 caliber load delivered with pin point accuracy at 100 yards is better than a 100 grain 58 load that is sloppy. If the gun will drive tacks at 70 grains, then that is your load unless you are planning on bear at close range. If you need a hotter load, go to a wad under the PBR and a heavier patch and give that a try. Mostly you just need to shoot the gun a bunch to break it in I suspect.
Every gun is different.
Lube can make all the difference in guns. I have a 36 here that will not hit a paper plate consistantly at 30 yards if you wipe with Rusty duck between shots. With prelubed Bass Pro patches it is a tack driver.
I killed my last 6 deer with 70 grains under a 495 ball with no problems at all. One of them went well over 200 pounds and was hit at 60 yards quartering away out of a 24 inch barrel. No problem with any deer ever built with an 80 grain load under a 530. For the magnumitis crowd, my last problem shot with a muzzleloader was with a 50 caliber 385 hollow point conical over 100 grains of P. That is about twice the load I am using in energy. It is all about shot placement and a 50 grain 50 caliber load delivered with pin point accuracy at 100 yards is better than a 100 grain 58 load that is sloppy. If the gun will drive tacks at 70 grains, then that is your load unless you are planning on bear at close range. If you need a hotter load, go to a wad under the PBR and a heavier patch and give that a try. Mostly you just need to shoot the gun a bunch to break it in I suspect.
"...The triggers seem to work fine until they are in the rifle. Checked for anything hitting (stock or sliver) and found nothing. Just doesn't seem to want to go into "set" UNLESS I pull the hammer back a tad more. Then I get a very loud "click" and I can set the trigger. Concerns me to use this while hunting? Very loud."
____________________________
When you say you checked to see if it was hitting anything, I assume you coated most of the inner workings of the trigger with some of your wifes cheap lipstick and then reinstalled the trigger.
If you did, and you got the trigger to "set", released it and removed it you didn't see any lipstick anywhere on the wood?
OK, don't use your wifes cheap lipstick, go to a drug store and buy the uglyest most gawdoffel thing you can find and use it. Then your wife can't say you are using her stuff.
You say the trigger works when it is out of the gun but not when it's installed.
If the trigger is installed but the lock is out of the gun will the trigger set and release like it should? If it does, the problem must be in the interface between the set trigger sear release blade and the sear arm on the lock.
If the trigger will set when the lock is not in the gun, set the rear trigger and try to reinstall the lock. It should slip into place. If it won't let the lock slip into place, read on. The trigger assembly may be dangerous.
If the lock does not slip into place with the trigger "set" then the trigger blade is interfering with the lock's sear release arm.
In the set position (or the unset position) the set trigger release blade should not apply any pressure to the locks sear arm.
NOTE: in the unset position many of the set triggers release blade will be high enough to prevent the lock from being installed but it should be easily pushed down to allow the lock to be inserted. Again I say, the set trigger release blade should not apply any pressure to the locks sear release arm (until the front trigger "fires" it. When the front trigger "fires" the set trigger, it slams upward very hard, but only for a few thousanths of a second, on the locks sear arm).
I have seen some guns who's rear set trigger release blade was held up too high by the spring so that it was constantly applying pressure on the locks sear if it was in the unset position. This is very dangerous because if it is doing this, it is trying to fire the gun all by itself and any little tap or bang on the stock could set it off.
If the trigger assembly, installed in the stock works fine when the lock is not installed and especially if it is interfering with the lock sear arm in any way, my recommendation would be to remove the trigger assembly and file off the upper surface of the set trigger blade.
Do not file on the blade which is part of the front trigger.
It may only take 1/32 of material removal or so to allow the blade to not interfere with the sear arm on the lock. in both the set and unset position.
I know this sounds like major surgery and you may not want to attempt it right away.
Let us know what you find after you have tried some of my tests.
____________________________
When you say you checked to see if it was hitting anything, I assume you coated most of the inner workings of the trigger with some of your wifes cheap lipstick and then reinstalled the trigger.
If you did, and you got the trigger to "set", released it and removed it you didn't see any lipstick anywhere on the wood?
OK, don't use your wifes cheap lipstick, go to a drug store and buy the uglyest most gawdoffel thing you can find and use it. Then your wife can't say you are using her stuff.
You say the trigger works when it is out of the gun but not when it's installed.
If the trigger is installed but the lock is out of the gun will the trigger set and release like it should? If it does, the problem must be in the interface between the set trigger sear release blade and the sear arm on the lock.
If the trigger will set when the lock is not in the gun, set the rear trigger and try to reinstall the lock. It should slip into place. If it won't let the lock slip into place, read on. The trigger assembly may be dangerous.
If the lock does not slip into place with the trigger "set" then the trigger blade is interfering with the lock's sear release arm.
In the set position (or the unset position) the set trigger release blade should not apply any pressure to the locks sear arm.
NOTE: in the unset position many of the set triggers release blade will be high enough to prevent the lock from being installed but it should be easily pushed down to allow the lock to be inserted. Again I say, the set trigger release blade should not apply any pressure to the locks sear release arm (until the front trigger "fires" it. When the front trigger "fires" the set trigger, it slams upward very hard, but only for a few thousanths of a second, on the locks sear arm).
I have seen some guns who's rear set trigger release blade was held up too high by the spring so that it was constantly applying pressure on the locks sear if it was in the unset position. This is very dangerous because if it is doing this, it is trying to fire the gun all by itself and any little tap or bang on the stock could set it off.
If the trigger assembly, installed in the stock works fine when the lock is not installed and especially if it is interfering with the lock sear arm in any way, my recommendation would be to remove the trigger assembly and file off the upper surface of the set trigger blade.
Do not file on the blade which is part of the front trigger.
It may only take 1/32 of material removal or so to allow the blade to not interfere with the sear arm on the lock. in both the set and unset position.
I know this sounds like major surgery and you may not want to attempt it right away.
Let us know what you find after you have tried some of my tests.
On thise guns it is possible to check set trigger arm to sear distance by pushing forward on the rear trigger. The gun has to be unloaded and the hammer cocked. That will allow you to feel the actual point where the sear and the blade touch. The lock can also be fired by pushing forward on the set trigger, so be very sure the gun is unloaded. It is possible that the spring is set so heavy that the sear is fighting the arm in the unset position. Setting it should not in any way be influenced by the sear. You are pulling it down away from the sear and the bar is a flat top. Any of the CVA set triggers can be fired by pushing forward on the rear trigger in the unset mode. This is a safety issue that should be taught to everyone that uses these rifles. The more you adjust the screw in the lock to decrease engagement and lighten the front pull, the easier it is to set it off with the back trigger also. Turning in on the spring adjustment screw will push the spring away from the trigger blade a small amount making the trigger easier to set and causing it to use a lighter throw force. Turning in on the trigger adjustment screw makes the rear engagement less in the front. Out increases it. The trigger spring is usually too strong and the front engagement needs to be adjusted after the spring tension is adjusted. First adjustment is sear engagement. Second is the spring making sure the strike is still strong enough to set the lock off every time. Third is the trigger adjustment screw. If it is a hunting gun, after you find the perfect combination, drop the lock back out and give it a half turn more engagement just for the heck of it. That small rifle lock is known for sear or tumbler notches chipping.
Zonie and Runner,
WOW :bow: What information! I will be working that trigger (lipstick and all) later. I have to read, reread and rereread your posts so I fully understand them. Your technical knowledge of the workings of the trigger and lock are amazing...I'm running as fast as I can just to catch up! :winking: :shocked2:
Thanks again...I'll post how I'm doing.
Dean
WOW :bow: What information! I will be working that trigger (lipstick and all) later. I have to read, reread and rereread your posts so I fully understand them. Your technical knowledge of the workings of the trigger and lock are amazing...I'm running as fast as I can just to catch up! :winking: :shocked2:
Thanks again...I'll post how I'm doing.
Dean
this is great stuff, I thought I was the only one to have this "set the trigger before I put it in" great stuff, my 54 I guess had to be "shot in" after 50 RBs I went to REALs, 50 shots later and it was alll ok. The main deal for me was the super thin front sight. Fred
deand: Don't thank me until you get it working.
My comments are based on the type of triggers sold by TOTW and MLBS but the basic principle is about the same.
My comments are based on the type of triggers sold by TOTW and MLBS but the basic principle is about the same.
:bow:
Thank you all for your input. First, I have the trigger mechanism set and fixed. Feels almost perfect to me. Nice and crisp but no excess pull. Second, I have it shooting 2" groups at 50 yards. This for me is outstanding. I have a cataract in my sighting eye and cannot see well enough to expect better.
Here's what I ended up with. 70 gr Pyrodex 2F (I will be trying black powder soon), a .530 RB with .015 prelubed patch.
I feel confident right now with hunting. That is what I wanted this year....now I just have to find a deer willing to walk close to me.
Thanks again and what a great site!
:applause:
Dean
Thank you all for your input. First, I have the trigger mechanism set and fixed. Feels almost perfect to me. Nice and crisp but no excess pull. Second, I have it shooting 2" groups at 50 yards. This for me is outstanding. I have a cataract in my sighting eye and cannot see well enough to expect better.
Here's what I ended up with. 70 gr Pyrodex 2F (I will be trying black powder soon), a .530 RB with .015 prelubed patch.
I feel confident right now with hunting. That is what I wanted this year....now I just have to find a deer willing to walk close to me.
Thanks again and what a great site!
:applause:
Dean
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2004
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For Deer....80 grains BP in 54 caliber is plenty!
With your RB and patch combiniation, does it take a lot of pressure with your short starter to seat the ball?
My friend and I each purchased CVA Big Bores in the late '70s. His a 54, mine a 58. I seem to remember he had fits with .530 rb, the convenient store-bought size, and he finally went to a smaller ball. The bore on my 58 is .571" (groove .590), and I deform a .570" ball trying to seat it with a 0.15" patch. Accuracy suffers that way with any powder charge. I shoot .562 ball in my rifle just fine.
Maybe the bore on yours is not .540". If your rifle has .530/.550 bore/groove diameters, you will want a smaller ball.
My friend and I each purchased CVA Big Bores in the late '70s. His a 54, mine a 58. I seem to remember he had fits with .530 rb, the convenient store-bought size, and he finally went to a smaller ball. The bore on my 58 is .571" (groove .590), and I deform a .570" ball trying to seat it with a 0.15" patch. Accuracy suffers that way with any powder charge. I shoot .562 ball in my rifle just fine.
Maybe the bore on yours is not .540". If your rifle has .530/.550 bore/groove diameters, you will want a smaller ball.
RandyS
Good discussion...I just mic'd the barrel and cam up with average of .533 on the bore and .553 on the grooves.
With my patch at 15 and ball at .530 do you think this could be too tight?
It does take an amount of force to short start the ball but once it's in the barrel she goes pretty nice (except for usual fouling after shots).
Dean
Good discussion...I just mic'd the barrel and cam up with average of .533 on the bore and .553 on the grooves.
With my patch at 15 and ball at .530 do you think this could be too tight?
It does take an amount of force to short start the ball but once it's in the barrel she goes pretty nice (except for usual fouling after shots).
Dean
A ball is too tight if you unevenly deform it while seating. Patch thickness and ball diameter plays a role in 'too tight'. It sounds like other approaches have moved you closer to where you want to be. Maybe try a thinner patch. I have to defer to others on this forum beyond that.
T
Tom Word
Guest
Hi Dean,
I have a CVA .54 St. Louis factory made Hawken that I've had for 3 years. It's a very good shooter!! At 50 yards, .530 round ball, .015 pillow ticking, 50 grains of FFF, I have hit 14 of 16 shilloutes at 50 yards!! That's a 'group' of 3 to 5 inches or less.
#1 Consider that you have a brand new barrel!!! It took me 100 to 150 rounds before my loads went down with consistancy. It was part training myself what the barrel and gun were doing and part what I should be doing. It takes a while for the barrel to get seasoned - just like cast iron cookware.
#2 From everything I've learned every barrel has a different 'personality'. You have to learn what your barrel 'wants'. After shooting 1,500+ rounds, I can do a walk through, shoot 15 rounds , not have to clean, and hit 12 or 14 targets out of 15 if my 'head' is together.
#3 Are you doing the same exact thing each time? Powder load, patch, lube, ball?
#4 And the big one!!! What is your sight picture and shooting procedures? The original sights on the rifle were hard to get the same sight picture every time. Being 1/32 of an inch off on your sight picture means a lot at 50 yards. I went to Track of the Wolf and order better, more original styled buckhorn sights which helped a lot!
And the hardest thing to admit - How's your vision? I had to admit that I was having problems seeing the sights even though I have 20-20 vision at 50 yards but wear reading glasses.
If you haven't already done it, join a black powder shooting club. Talk to the good shooters. They can give you some great tips.
AND the most important fact is the " O. E. FACTOR" YES, that's the "Operator Error Factor" - ME!!! If I don't have it together, I can't hit the side of the barn!!!
Hope this gives you some ideas.
Keep your powder dry!
I have a CVA .54 St. Louis factory made Hawken that I've had for 3 years. It's a very good shooter!! At 50 yards, .530 round ball, .015 pillow ticking, 50 grains of FFF, I have hit 14 of 16 shilloutes at 50 yards!! That's a 'group' of 3 to 5 inches or less.
#1 Consider that you have a brand new barrel!!! It took me 100 to 150 rounds before my loads went down with consistancy. It was part training myself what the barrel and gun were doing and part what I should be doing. It takes a while for the barrel to get seasoned - just like cast iron cookware.
#2 From everything I've learned every barrel has a different 'personality'. You have to learn what your barrel 'wants'. After shooting 1,500+ rounds, I can do a walk through, shoot 15 rounds , not have to clean, and hit 12 or 14 targets out of 15 if my 'head' is together.
#3 Are you doing the same exact thing each time? Powder load, patch, lube, ball?
#4 And the big one!!! What is your sight picture and shooting procedures? The original sights on the rifle were hard to get the same sight picture every time. Being 1/32 of an inch off on your sight picture means a lot at 50 yards. I went to Track of the Wolf and order better, more original styled buckhorn sights which helped a lot!
And the hardest thing to admit - How's your vision? I had to admit that I was having problems seeing the sights even though I have 20-20 vision at 50 yards but wear reading glasses.
If you haven't already done it, join a black powder shooting club. Talk to the good shooters. They can give you some great tips.
AND the most important fact is the " O. E. FACTOR" YES, that's the "Operator Error Factor" - ME!!! If I don't have it together, I can't hit the side of the barn!!!
Hope this gives you some ideas.
Keep your powder dry!
Rocky Johnson
45 Cal.
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- Nov 5, 2003
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BLKFT-n-Dagolan Good advise. Welcome to the fourm :winking: Rocky
I owned a .54 cal mountain rifle and it was the best rifle I've ever shot.
Here's what I did to make it shoot.
I Glassed the barrel. I have 2 cva's with the same problem. Without the glass, the gun would dance all over the target.
I Use Pillow ticking and spit patch .530 ball.
I shoot FFF
40 grains up to 50 yards
60 grains up to 100 yards
80 grains out to 200 yards
Regards
Wounded knee
Here's what I did to make it shoot.
I Glassed the barrel. I have 2 cva's with the same problem. Without the glass, the gun would dance all over the target.
I Use Pillow ticking and spit patch .530 ball.
I shoot FFF
40 grains up to 50 yards
60 grains up to 100 yards
80 grains out to 200 yards
Regards
Wounded knee
Thanks you all!
I'm shooting about as consistent as I can hope. 3" group at 50 yards. If I could see better I'd want better.
I've been working on this rifle for the last two weeks and am very happy with some changes I've made. It looks/feels better in my hands.
Just glad to be shooting frontstuffers again. It's what I learned on and then I got away from it for awhile. Not a long while....just a bit...
thanks again and I wish you all the best of shooting.
Dean
I'm shooting about as consistent as I can hope. 3" group at 50 yards. If I could see better I'd want better.
I've been working on this rifle for the last two weeks and am very happy with some changes I've made. It looks/feels better in my hands.
Just glad to be shooting frontstuffers again. It's what I learned on and then I got away from it for awhile. Not a long while....just a bit...
thanks again and I wish you all the best of shooting.
Dean
coehornboy
40 Cal.
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Dean: I built a flint version if the .54 CVA halfstock in the early 80's. I too had problems with accuracy in the beginning. W/ round ball and store bought patches, I initially had to use a 80 or 85 grain load of ffg or fffg for a few shots until the barrel "crudded up" a bit. Then, I was able to decrease my powder every few shots until about shot # 8, when I could maintain at 65 grains or so. I tried thicker patch material, different lubes, etc, but to no avail. It just needs to get a bit "dirty" inside to shoot accurately.
However, I have noticed that over time and the more I shoot it, the accuracy increases with fewer shots. Sadly though, I have probably only put a few hundred rounds through the rifle.
I also tried mini type slugs, with no luck. I was told that the twist is wrong in the barrel for anything other than round ball.
However, I have noticed that over time and the more I shoot it, the accuracy increases with fewer shots. Sadly though, I have probably only put a few hundred rounds through the rifle.
I also tried mini type slugs, with no luck. I was told that the twist is wrong in the barrel for anything other than round ball.
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