CVA Mountain rifle

[swathdiver]

...he says CVA never made a factory assembled mountain rifle, they were (he says) all kits.

I gather he never seen a period catalog or talked to folks like the fellas here who bought brand new guns assembled in the box?

 

[Black Jack]

His theory is the assembled guns that sold retail were actually made from kits in large batches by private parties. And these were then acquired (wholesale so to speak) by Dixie GW, etc. and sold as new.

Interesting and imaginative, but simply not factual.

 

[will5a1]

Or a creative attempt to explain away or lessen the rifle's shortcomings.

 

[Darto]

I have followed this seller on Gunbroker every week for 3 years. (Because I got a bargain gun from him once and so lurked his auctions).

I saw that he has sold 3 or 4 Mountain rifles each year. What he says is that none of the very many more he has sold (over many years, all used) were the same. All of them had differences in finish and in the details. This is (he says) why he believes all Mountain Rifles were kits, even the ones sold new and assembled.

My Mountain Rifle (not bought from him) has the Made in USA on the LEFT side of barrel, SN 0054xxx. Five digits seems like a relatively high number to me, so not sure why it says made in USA on mine because it probably is not an early one.

A search on gunbroker Item=503207090 will bring up his discussion, on the sales page of that one.

 

[necchi]

I don't wanna drag up all the stuff about the CVA MR again in this topic, but in short, the best compilation of actual knowledge vs myth about the MR available on-line is on this forum in two topics by member Walks Alone.
Search the members list to find his name and those two topics and read all the posts including the links in each topic.
The seller you mention does not seem to have well informed actual knowledge, just an experienced guess.
Don't get hung up on the made in USA, thousands of them where marked that way and made in Spain,,
Again read those two topics.

 

[will5a1]

I had read his description and speculative theory for GB #503207090; it is, in my opinion, creative marketing at best, he might honestly believe what he wrote, but it has no basis in fact. I recall the hoopla CVA made when the MR was first introduced, the factory team competing at Friendship, the review in the Buckskin Report - those early, USA made rifles were not farmed out to be assembled by sub-contractors. If you haven't please review all the info in the topics on the Mountain Rifle, on this forum, a number of years ago, regarding serial numbers and dates with known rifles.

Time permitting I will try to find the review in the BR and post it, if I can figure out how to.

 

[swathdiver]

I have followed this seller on Gunbroker every week for 3 years. (Because I got a bargain gun from him once and so lurked his auctions).

I saw that he has sold 3 or 4 Mountain rifles each year. What he says is that none of the very many more he has sold (over many years, all used) were the same. All of them had differences in finish and in the details. This is (he says) why he believes all Mountain Rifles were kits, even the ones sold new and assembled.

My Mountain Rifle (not bought from him) has the Made in USA on the LEFT side of barrel, SN 0054xxx. Five digits seems like a relatively high number to me, so not sure why it says made in USA on mine because it probably is not an early one.

A search on gunbroker Item=503207090 will bring up his discussion, on the sales page of that one.

A great many MRs pass through my hands as well. 2016 will be the fortieth year since the .45 and .50 caliber CVA Mountain Rifles were introduced. They didn’t come on market with a whimper but with a bang! The MR on that auction, yours and one of mine were all made in 1976. One of my .50s is within a few hundred of yours and has the original box and paperwork.

By 1979 production shifted offshore to Spain and one of our other .50s is in the 0134XXX range and is Spanish but have seen 0111XXX guns that were USA made.

Now after 40 years they are surely going to start looking different! People are tinkerers and they are going to get tinkered with, that one on GB has been refinished at least once, CVA didn’t use that finish on them but someone liked it. One can see all the marks from someone filing and or using sandpaper and the high polish put on some of the german silver furniture. And somewhere along the line someone definitely spruced up the lock! Check out the jewelling.

 

[necchi]

The "Made In USA" stamp is meaningless.
There where only a few hundred fully made here in the US,, there rest where "made" in Spain and assembled here.

 

[swathdiver]

The "Made In USA" stamp is meaningless.
There where only a few hundred fully made here in the US,, there rest where "made" in Spain and assembled here.

What is the source for this information? It does not seem to concur with my personally collected information nor that of Walks Alone in several of his posts.

 

[necchi]

The now retired previous owner of Deer Creek Products. Deer Creek is and has been CVA's custom/warranty shop, they are the current owners of the mythical Douglas barrel machines (now the Deer Creek Product barrel making machines).
If your reading Walks Alone's two related topics you need to read the links too, it's all in there and does require some significant time to research. The barrels where made in Spain but breech-ed state side,, it was a way to beat the proofing house and shipping expense,,

 

[Critter Getter]

So do you know if Deer Creek will make a barrel for a MR in say a small caliber like a .36 since they own those Douglas machines? Greg

 

[swathdiver]

The now retired previous owner of Deer Creek Products. Deer Creek is and has been CVA's custom/warranty shop, they are the current owners of the mythical Douglas barrel machines (now the Deer Creek Product barrel making machines).
If your reading Walks Alone's two related topics you need to read the links too, it's all in there and does require some significant time to research. The barrels where made in Spain but breech-ed state side,, it was a way to beat the proofing house and shipping expense,,

Just finished rereading those, some others of Walks Alone and Longball58's posts from 2008.

I do not mean to infer through my posts that MR barrels, however they are marked or not, are Douglas. From the first person accounts and lack of advertising, don't think they ever were.

CVA advertised the MRs as being "Made in the USA" in their '76, '77 and '78 catalogs. The '79 catalog no longer mentions this and clearly shows what Stands Alone designates as the Model 2.

I do not know what the law was then (or now) on what "Made in the USA" means. Does it mean assembled in the US or that all the parts were made in the US? :idunno:

If CVA falsely advertised the MRs those three years I wonder if their competitors ever took them to task over it?

I believe that for those first three years the parts were made in Spain and then shipped to the USA for assembly and so on.

Then knowing that the Big Bore's and Frontier rifle and further down the pipeline the Hawken, they shifted assembly to Spain for the '79 "model year".

The changes made to the furniture, in my opinion, reflect a decision to cut costs and share parts across the line.

The MRs were not in the 1985 catalog and reappeared as new in 1988 with some changes. After 3 or 4 years they went out of production again being brought back for special runs in limited numbers. Some of these had walnut versus maple stocks. Those '88 MRs had trigger guards like the Frontier but polished bright and shiny and we see them posted here from time to time.

 

[necchi]

I do not know what the law was then (or now) on what "Made in the USA" means. Does it mean assembled in the US or that all the parts were made in the US? :idunno:

I don't know what those requirements were either, I know it's still loosely defined even today,,

It was all about the Spanish proofing and costs, basically what they shipped where "machined pipe" instead of finished barrels,, it was Spain that finally caught on and tagged'm.
Some of the later models and special runs where indeed fully done at Deer Creek, but again with Spanish locks/triggers.

There is so much myth spread around about these things,, all of the actual records where literally tossed in a dumpster when CVA moved to another building years ago and all most to the man the guy's that know are dead.
The Gentlemen known as Walks Alone got so weary of the endless manure and arguments spread about these things he simply refuses to discuss it any more even on several other forums,, he hasn't logged in here for over 2yrs.

So I guess people can believe what they want, :idunno:

 

[necchi]

So do you know if Deer Creek will make a barrel for a MR in say a small caliber like a .36 since they own those Douglas machines? Greg

Don't know, call'm or email :wink: ; http://www.deercreekproducts.net/

 

[swathdiver]

I know, all across the net, the Sharon and Douglas barrel thing is repeated ad nauseum.

After reading Walks Alone's posts, I decided to pick up where he left off and began collecting CVA catalogs and rifles and try to help inform the fellas here and add to the knowledge base of these fine rifles.

The 2013 Deer Creek catalog showed MR kits and complete rifles and up until last year one could still get .50 and .54 cal flint and percussion barrels for them. They even had a 1" across the flats .54 smoothy barrel for a Hawken!

 

[swathdiver]

So do you know if Deer Creek will make a barrel for a MR in say a small caliber like a .36 since they own those Douglas machines? Greg

They couldn't or wouldn't for a CVA Kentucky Hunter barrel but have found Colerain and Green Mountain barrels that would work.

 

[Critter Getter]

Well, I did one better.........I stopped there today as I was traveling close by as I made a journey on my way to Florida. They do NOT have the Douglas machines anymore but wishes he did. He said that those machines could put out 6 rifled barrels an hour. He also said the guns marked "Made in the USA" we're early guns that were indeed made in this country. Greg.

 

[PeteDavis]

Could someone please clarify when the CVA Big Bore Mtn rifles were offered? I have one that I built from a kit in AK in 1981. I want to buy an old catalog to go with it. It's on its second barrel now.

PD

 

[swathdiver]

The Big Bore MRs were introduced in 1979 and were gone from the 1985 catalog, even the .45s and .50s. They came back slightly different in 1988, again listed as "new" in that year and to my incomplete knowledge kept in production until at least 1991 or so. Afterwards, they were brought back every once in awhile as special editions of which some have been verified as being made by Deer Creek.

There was an '81 catalog for sale on that auction site as of yesterday.

 

[necchi]

Well, I did one better.........I stopped there today

Two different guy's saying two different things from the same shop,
New owner vs Old owner, years apart.
Was the new owner "part of it all" like the Old owner?
Interesting,, I'd like to say "the plot thickens" but it doesn't,, it muddies to a darker shade,, it seems any clarity will be lost completely.