CWD in whitetail deer

[Jaeger]

I hope this is not "off topic" for this area, but I want to ask hunters in Wisconsin and other states west of Michigan with Chronic Wasting Disease in their deer herds what effect this has on their hunting. Since CWD is related to Mad Cow Disease and Scrapie, I'm dreading the day that CWD makes its way into Michigan's deer herd. The Michigan DNR has already warned us that it has been found in a few animals on a "deer farm" in western Michigan. I like eating venison, but I'm not sure I would eat venison with CWD being found in ANY deer in the area where I hunt. Let's hear some opinions, please.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Recent studies have SHOWN NO correlation between consuming CWD meat, and these diseases in humans. They don't know what causes these diseases in Humans, but there is no relationship to the CWD animals, killed and consumed.

We have a few counties in Illinois that have reported CWD deer taken, so that the Ill. Dept. of Natural Resources has also been keeping its eye on the issue. No one is telling people its okay to each the bone marrow of infected animals, but there is no reason Not to eat the meat, provided its cooked.

Bone the meat of any deer that is suspected of being infected, and dispose off the bones. Cook the meat properly and don't worry about it.

 

[Jaeger]

Thanks for the opinion, Paul. I think that is what I've heard also: that there is no proven link to disease in humans. I think that is the official answer. I could be mistaken, but I think CWD is caused by an agent called a PRION, which also causes Mad Cow Disease, Kreutzfeldt-Jakob Syndrome, and scrapie. Prions are scary things: they can only be destroyed by BURNING.
I was just curious about other hunters' experience with CWD in their state & how they felt about eating the venison.

 

[larry wv]

I haven't got to be 60 years old by beliving what the people in charge tell me. I live on a farm and will tell you their is no way in h--- I will eat or even touch an animal with cwd or mad cow. Not running you down Paul just my way of thinking. Larry

 

[JayDee Flohr]

We've had it here in Nebraska for a lot or years. It hasn't effected my hunting one bit. I personally believe it's been with the deer herds for centuries and we are just now discovering it and giving it a name.

 

[paulvallandigham]

I understand people's concerns, and cautions about eating any meat.

But, as has been noted, its probably been around for centuries and we only have just found it and given it a name. There is too much " The sky is falling " Chicken Little politics being done to the American Public by public Health agencies, with political agendas that are anti-freedom and anti-gun. The Center For Disease Control is one of the Federal Agencies that was Notoriously Anti-gun, and this CWD "Alert" Was just one of their many "Scares" they put out to convince members of the public to stop Hunting, and eating the meat you kill.

As much as I hate politics, and hate having to consider the source, and political agenda of government agencies before accepting what they are saying. And I do resent having to even mention it when we are talking about serious matters on the hunting thread, here. But, that is the reality. YOU DO HAVE TO CONSIDER the source of these " alerts" before you change your behavior. The wacko groups that are annually trying to interfere with your right to hunt have no problem using laboratory " Models" as a substitute for scientific fact, to support putting out press releases. The infest our government, and gain control of agencies only to use what power they have to do you harm. Their agendas are as crazy as their concerns, but they all are interested in POWER and control OVER YOU.

They believe that if they can convince people that wildlife it too dangerous to eat, we will stop hunting. That will eliminate one of the chief reasons people own guns. They then hope to pass gun bans, as fewer and fewer voters are hunters, and gun owners, who will rise up and resist their efforts to take control of this country and change it to eliminate your personal freedoms.

JUST, PLEASE!, use your own common sense when you respond to these " alerts". Ask who is the source of this information. DEMAND to see the scientific data that is being relied on to make the claim of danger. DEMAND to know the standards being applied by the scientists when they say something is dangerous to the public health or not. DEMAND to know if this is dangerous to all peoples, or just to part of the population. When you ask those questions, and any others that come to you, you will force your government to be HONEST with all of us. And you will finally get the truth.

Remember, our wonderful Government declared, UNDER OATH, before Congress, our representatives, that Lake Erie was DEAD for 1,000 YEARS, due to man-made pollution. That " Fact" led to the spending of billions of dollars to clean up the lake, and imposed expensive restrictions on all of us, and the kinds and costs of detergents we could use to wash our clothes. 5 years later, fish were found living in abundance in LAKE ERIE, the lake the EPA declared would not support life of any kind for 1,000 years. We all believe our government back then, too. A few of us now take a very long, careful look at anything the government puts out these days, and ask, How much is this going to cost Taxpayers??

 

[larry wv]

Paul the people in he know told us pesticides and herbicides were not that bad. Then all of a sudden they were causeing cancers. I am not one to take chances for no reason. I won't quit hunting till I die. But I will be careful of what I eat. :thumbsup: LARRY

 

[guncobbler]

CWD was found in WV just across the ridge from where I hunted in VA. VA has been testing pretty hard ever since on road kills, checked deer and "sampled" deer. I had the opportunity to hunt closer to home so I stopped hunting this area. CWD and all the prion diseases are amazingly persistent in the soil even after the deer is killed and rotted to nothing but stray proteins in the clay. It takes temps over 1000F to neutralize it. Places where deer are fed like game farms are just asking for trouble as it can be spread by saliva. There was a game farmer in WV a few years back who got into trouble with red deer (which are the same as our elk but smaller) from the UK. Could easily see how CWD could easily be transported from the UK by red deer. If you remember the slaughter of UK herds to control mad cow can you imagine what it would take to control CWD? You'd have to give every teenager in the states a 22 and a flashlight and tell them to cap every deer they see.

My answer to the folks who doubt the science is to stop using antibiotics, heart meds and any other medical technologies. They were all invented by the same kind of pointed headed scientists who are warning about CWD. GC

 

[paulvallandigham]

When the alarms were posted about CWD, NO ONE knew much of anything about the disease. Studies had to be constructed to determine the existence and extent of the disease in N. America. Other studies were begun to find out if the disease COULD BE transmitted to humans. And still other studies were begun to determine what effect contracting the disease would have in humans.

At the time the alerts were made public, it was the responsible thing to do.

However, since then, results from the studies show no correlation between the presence of the disease in Deer, and the human diseases thought to be associated with " mad cow " disease.

You have to ask questions, and make distinctions in warning that say " This MIGHT HAPPEN" compared to, " There are a few reported cases of this disease also causing other diseases", to "This DISEASE IS KNOWN to cause other diseases, or the same symptoms in humans when consumed in food. "

I hope you can see the distinctions, here. Each statement represents a Scientific observation. But only the last statement should be of concern to the public to the extent that it alters your behavior. Even then, you need to know "HOW MUCH " of the substance has to be consumed for it to infect you, and whether cooking the meat kills the virus or bacteria.

It may take 1,000 degrees of heat to " kill " some prions", but that does not mean they continue to be a public health problem when heated to lower, more normal cooking temperatures. A Prion is just a subatomic particle. It doesn't cause an illness by itself. It has to alter other cells, and then those cells become the problem. If you kill the vehicle(cells) the prion exists in, by cooking the meat, the prion represents no threat to you.

We are just now learning about subatomic particles, and the more we learn, the more we understand that they are all around us, have been all around mankind since our beginning, and are in us as well as the surrounding plants, and animals, and air. Its too easy for alarmists to grab their 15 seconds of Fame, by publishing an " Alert" to the public over some newly discovered anything. The more we learn about prions, the less we fear them. Who know what the next "alarm " will be all about.

I don't mind someone disagreeing with me, and certainly not about eating wild game they suspect may be diseased. "When in doubt, DON'T"!

But, I long ago lost my willingness to trust government, or scientists, the closer I got to both of them. I am a published scientist, and I know the level of care you need to use to satisfy peer review or any new research. That kind of care is NOT present in the pronouncements we hear from our government, from water contamination, to Green House Effect, to the danger of lead in the environment. Did you know a Judge in England banned the showing of Al Gore's Oscar Winning movie on Global Warming, unless the movie included in its opening credits a list of more than 100 factual errors? As a result the movie was not shown in England at all. Is that a bit embarrassing, or what? So much for " scientific fact".

 

[John Wasmuth]

Sorry, but feeding deer has nothing to do with CWD. Deer do what when they meet each other in the wild with only natural food sources around? Swap spit, one of the first things they do. Feeding deer causes CWD about like McDonalds causes people to be junk food. Trying to blame a game ranch for CWD is based upon emotion rather than scientific fact. If game farms caused CWD by feeding, 99% of the deer and hooved stock in Texas would be dead from it. Not one documented case has yet appeared here. Feeding deer has not a thing to do with it.

 

[longcruise]

Bone the meat of any deer that is suspected of being infected, and dispose off the bones. Cook the meat properly and don't worry about it.

Good advice in general, but if you are suggesting that eliminating cwd from your table will be accomplished by proper cooking, you are mistaken. Only complete and absolute incineration eliminates the prion.

I don't concern myself over it given the studies that have been done in CO.

 

[CZMark]

A deer can be tested for CWD. The head must be sent to a lab within about 48 hours of death. Meat can be frozen and not eaten until test results come back negative.

As far as feeding deer, Wisconsin has banned it in the CWD area because feeders concentrate deer, and a feeding area which becomes contaminated may spread the disease to a large number of deer.

I have read a great deal about CWD (I live within Wisconsin's CWD area) and still cannot understand how such a terrible disease can be caused by a simple protein (prion).

 

[Black Hand]

....but if you are suggesting that eliminating cwd from your table will be accomplished by proper cooking, you are mistaken. Only complete and absolute incineration eliminates the prion.

Not even incineration works according to some sources. However, not eating the organs (especially brains, spinal cord, spleen and lymphnodes) seems to minimize the risk of transmission.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Again, as I understand it, prions are everywhere. Its not the prion that causes the illness, but cells that are altered by the prions and change to be disease causing. Cooking is going to usually destroy the cells involved, whether it kills a prion or not.

You would Eat NO food- not meat, or grain, or grasses, or legumes, if you knew everything BAD about all of them. If you want to starve to death in order to avoid dying from some rare disease, that is your problem. You fail to give credit to an incredible, and elaborate system within the human body to protect itself from many " poisons", and for our systems to develop new Anti-bodies to fight off infections. Up until the mid-1950s, every home was heated with wood or coal or oil. We had all kinds of carcenogens, for example, in our homes, plus much more CO2 and other so-called " greenhouse gases in our homes and atmosphere. We breathed in the stuff from open fires, and no one thought a thing about it. And the human race survived.

Think about it.

The Sky really is NOT falling, Chicken Little. :hmm:

 

[longcruise]

The Sky really is NOT falling, Chicken Little.

First off, I agree with your chicken little view of the whole scenario. I don't get my game tested and don't worry about contracting a brain disease.

However:

Its not the prion that causes the illness, but cells that are altered by the prions and change to be disease causing. Cooking is going to usually destroy the cells involved, whether it kills a prion or not.

It is the prion which causes cwd. The prion is a protein. It's not like a bacteria or virus. In order to neutralize the prion (protein), it must be incinerated. So, unless you wish to eat your tenderloins in the form of ashes, you could ingest the prion. It will not be destroyed.

You fail to give credit to an incredible, and elaborate system within the human body to protect itself from many " poisons", and for our systems to develop new Anti-bodies to fight off infections.

The jury is out on whether or not we humans do not get cwd because of immune response or not. There is no evidence to suggest that cwd is transmittable to humans as mad cow is. The "human form" of cwd is called Creutzfeldt Jakob disease.

The following is from the National Institute of Health:

What is Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease?
Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (CJD) is a rare, degenerative, invariably fatal brain disorder. Typically, onset of symptoms occurs at about age 60. There are three major categories of CJD: sporadic CJD, hereditary CJD, and acquired CJD. There is currently no single diagnostic test for CJD. The first concern is to rule out treatable forms of dementia such as encephalitis or chronic meningitis. The only way to confirm a diagnosis of CJD is by brain biopsy or autopsy. In a brain biopsy, a neurosurgeon removes a small piece of tissue from the patient's brain so that it can be examined by a neurologist. Because a correct diagnosis of CJD does not help the patient, a brain biopsy is discouraged unless it is need to rule out a treatable disorder. While CJD can be transmitted to other people, the risk of this happening is extremely small.

Is there any treatment?

There is no treatment that can cure or control CJD. Current treatment is aimed at alleviating symptoms and making the patient as comfortable as possible. Opiate drugs can help relieve pain, and the drugs clonazepam and sodium valproate may help relieve involuntary muscle jerks.

What is the prognosis?

About 90 percent of patients die within 1 year. In the early stages of disease, patients may have failing memory, behavioral changes, lack of coordination and visual disturbances. As the illness progresses, mental deterioration becomes pronounced and involuntary movements, blindness, weakness of extremities, and coma may occur.

End NIH quotes.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Sorry, but feeding deer has nothing to do with CWD. Deer do what when they meet each other in the wild with only natural food sources around? Swap spit, one of the first things they do. Feeding deer causes CWD about like McDonalds causes people to be junk food.

Feeding deer does not cause CWD. Feeding deer gets a sick deer up close to many healthy deer and may quickly spread the disease. The cause/vector is not understood so it may be saliva, blood through an insect vector, it's not known I don't believe. So why risk losing ALL deer by feeding some deliberately? I've seen good intentioned folks set out a tray of feed and six or seven deer take turns sticking their mouths in the same grain. Feeding stations concentrate wild deer AND bring the contact to the same food point - the tray, trough, pile, whatever. One infected deer in that case can quickly infect others. MUCH more so than grazing. My neighbor did this and I downloaded the state regulations stating it is illegal in NY for them and they stopped. Feeding deer in pens is not so much a problem as penned deer don't interact with wild deer . . . much. But penning a deer is like trying to fence in water. They are good at getting out.

I shot a fallow deer in my back yard (20 acres). It had escaped from a pen 10 miles away. I have no mercy on introduced species - especially with the danger of CWD and tuberculosis. TB is also rapidly passed from concentrated herds or feeding stations.

I have never seen adult deer "swap spit", though I have seen young deer nuzzle a doe. And young/newborn ruminants have to get their initial stomach flora (bacteria) from sharlig the mother's cud. The bucks usually are not paying attention to the mouth end when they are visiting does up close.

 

[longcruise]

Feeding deer does not cause CWD. Feeding deer gets a sick deer up close to many healthy deer and may quickly spread the disease. The cause/vector is not understood so it may be saliva, blood through an insect vector, it's not known I don't believe. So why risk losing ALL deer by feeding some deliberately?

I think it's been pretty well established that they do transmit it to each other somehow and therefore, causing them to bunch up must promote the spread of the disease. It makes me wonder why wisconsin only prohibits feeding deer in the "cwd area". Would make sense to me to eliminate all feeding of the deer.

In CO it's illegal but the rule is hard to enforce and many well meaning people feed all of the wildlife that happens by. Non-hunters are the most likely to be ignorant of the rules in that respect.

CO had a pen that held deer some of which had CWD. They removed all the animals from the pen and introduced a fresh supply of deer many months later. The cwd rate among those deer spiked immediatley. So, it apparently hangs around for a long time even when there are no deer on the ground.

 

[Stumpkiller]

The local Gander Mt. has a whole isle devoted to deer feed & spreaders. Illegal to use in NY, but not illegal to sell. Also illegal to hunt deer over "bait". I took a copy of the DEC page stating it was illegal to feed deer in NY and asked them to post it in the isle but they wouldn't. I guess they're looking for the out-of-state business.

Yeah, right.

 

[longcruise]

Illegal to use in NY, but not illegal to sell.

Yeah, that's nutty.

I've found that the local big box stores like wal mart, bass pro, sportsman's warehouse, etc. etc. seem to do the same thing. The BP area of those shops are loaded with stuff that is illegal to hunt with in CO. I asked about it once in one of the big stores and they said they did not order it. Was all done by some anonymous buyer in a cubicle somewhere in a far away land. Go figger.

Same thing seems to be the case with fishing gear. Everything you could ever want or need to catch a bass but very little for walleye and trout which are way more popular around here.

 

[CZMark]

I think it's been pretty well established that they do transmit it to each other somehow and therefore, causing them to bunch up must promote the spread of the disease. It makes me wonder why wisconsin only prohibits feeding deer in the "cwd area". Would make sense to me to eliminate all feeding of the deer.

The short answer is politics. Feeding was banned statewide for a while, political decisions changed that.