Cylinder rotating counter-clockwise

[D Yager]

Did Colt ever install action shields, cap rakes, wire springs, plunger hand springs, bolt blocks , etc and yet we have discovered some are improvements to performance and worth while.
I think some of your so called "improvements" are complicated solutions in search of a problem and actually depart from more efficient, simple, original design! Colt produced what the public and military required as efficiently as they could and still make a profit with.
I which you would be honest about what I have actually said about short arbors .

SO what is your deal on short arbors? You want to make noise about the work we do on these pistols, what qualifies you to tell us we don't know what we are doing? What is your background on tuning and repairing these revolvers? How many have you tuned that qualifies you to be the final word? Mike and I don't see ourselves as the expert to end all experts, both of us are willing to listen to new ideas. So far you have side stepped my questions on your experience repairing and tuning these pistols every time. And again you bring nothing to the table but hot air. Keep it going, I have plenty of popcorn.

 

[bpd303]

I'll try and find the one we had to use at the PD.

I found and downloaded it. It's VLC Media Player an open source free software but your video still doesn't appear just audio.

 

[M. De Land]

Bubba is waiting for what you actually said, without all the razzmatazz word salad & one-upmanship.

Clear and descriptive use of good English is a positive and introduction of new ideas of improved means and methods should be sought after and incouraged. There is no virtue in remaining ignorant when one can better themselves and improve their skill and knowledge with counter thought challenge to the status quo.

 

[M. De Land]

SO what is your deal on short arbors? You want to make noise about the work we do on these pistols, what qualifies you to tell us we don't know what we are doing? What is your background on tuning and repairing these revolvers? How many have you tuned that qualifies you to be the final word? Mike and I don't see ourselves as the expert to end all experts, both of us are willing to listen to new ideas. So far you have side stepped my questions on your experience repairing and tuning these pistols every time. And again you bring nothing to the table but hot air. Keep it going, I have plenty of popcorn.

I have always said that fitting the arbor end in it's well is a good improvement but that it is not critical to good accuracy and that short arbor guns have been an will continue to be in use for decades. I know this to be fact because the majority of the reproduction guns made over six decades since their reintroduction in the 60's have not been end fit nor ever will be and are still operating. Production arbor end fitting did not commence until Pietta made the change to CNC driven machinery about a decade ago and the number of "tuned"/corrected guns is and will remain minuscule in comparison to the number of those sold. Pietta is improving this but until Uberti gets on board short arbor guns will remain in the hands of the shooting public by the additional hundreds and perhaps thousands annually.

 

[D Yager]

That's true only to a certain point, Walkers and Dragoons are particularly prone to frames stretching with full house loads. Yes there is a good number out there that are not correct. I wouldn't own one that has not been corrected. I have seen far too many that were paperweights from not being corrected. And that is the reason I do the repairs and offer tuning services to those who want to make the most of their stuff. So how many Walkers and Dragoons have you corrected the arbors on...or pocket pistols that have throw by issues... or belt pistols that had huge barrel/cylinder gaps and loose wedges? You keep side stepping these questions, answer them truthfully and maybe you will gain some credibility.

 

[M. De Land]

Probably not, action shields are an add on for sure (cause folks won't clean their revolvers), cap posts are a modern fix for a modern problem, wire springs are modern versions of flat springs (coils are better), plunger hand springs came out with Ruger, bolt blocks DID come from Colt's custom shop as well as action stops ( that's where Jim Martin learned that from). The thing that these upgrades DIDN'T change is the timing aspect as well as function . . . which is why FACTORY corrections are STILL the correct fix!!!

Please tell me what those "improvements" are so we can learn what's "frill" and what isn't.

Mike

Well since you asked :
1. Maintaining the original bolt and hand flat spring style replaced with stainless spring stock. They are faster reacting and more efficient (responsive) and reliable (original design) than when coil/ plunger or wire springs are used. A coil spring will eventually take set and loose some tension (1911 recoil spring as an example) which is actually not to important in the hand spring as long as the tension is great enough to maintain contact with the ratchet and preform it's sole purpose.
The bolt spring must be left strong enough to prevent skip over or notch hop which is the actual cause for it occurring. I think this is also referred to as throw by ! Again the flat spring has a faster response time than does wire springs. The reason this is true is because the wire coils make the wire spring longer than is a flat spring for the same response movement requirement. Personally I think so called throw by is caused by improper bolt spring response and has nothing at all to do with hand tension increase. I think what happens is coincidental occurrence of improper bolt response rather than hand spring tension which gets the blame. The very fact that a coil and plunger works is proof that there is no gain of hand spring tension in the hand stroke rise as it can only be decreased by the leverage lose as the plunger contact moves closer to the pivot in the rise.
Wire springs will indeed break, usually in the coil as they are cold wound. I have had to make and replace them. Wire springs are more reliable than flats springs made of standard spring steel but this is not true when made of stainless spring stock.
2. Bolt blocks below the window are a solution in search of a problem for normal function (in my opinion) as they are farther away (less leverage) from the cylinder notch and window linked by the bolt to stop rotation. The screw purchase at the bolt base has plenty of leverage in it's position and is more than adequate to handle the lateral torque imparted by cylinder stoppage energy especially in a well fit bolt and window mate up. I can see a possible useful function for window support against batter in fanning revolvers but the cylinder notch is what takes the real beating an fanning is a nonsensical mishandling of a revolver.
3, Cap rakes I have found to be unnecessary when the nipples are adjusted (diamond filed in a hand drill) to the caps used, hammer face clearance is adjusted and the safety pin notch is relieved of all sharp and battered corners.
I am an enthusiast of the action shield to keep debris and fouling out of Walker guts when flat head riveted in place of the hammer body cross cut which is a weakening action that hooks debris or needs to be filled to prevent it .
4. I especially like well fit tool steel wedges in tandem with an end fit arbor plug of solid steel for ultimate performance.
5. I don't care for drilling and tapping (weakening) the end of arbor slots for factory wedge adjustment screws.

 

[45D]

Well since you asked :
1. Maintaining the original bolt and hand flat spring style replaced with stainless spring stock. They are faster reacting and more efficient (responsive) and reliable (original design) than when coil/ plunger or wire springs are used.

Functionality and reliability are most important to me and my customers. Ruger has proven the coil setup to be exactly that . . . so much so that Magnum Research (BFR's), Freedom Arms use it and even Uberti and Pietta use the coil hand spring in their SAA copies (their flat hand springs were usually the first to break!). So, not a "frills" thing at all, just common sense.

The bolt spring must be left strong enough to prevent skip over or notch hop which is the actual cause for it occurring. I think this is also referred to as throw by ! Again the flat spring has a faster response time than does wire springs. The reason this is true is because the wire coils make the wire spring longer than is a flat spring for the same response movement requirement.

The bolt only needs 3-4 lbs pressure to do its job so technically you're wrong about the need for a heavy spring. That's been the "tuner" setup since the 1950s ( fast draw / fanner craze) so apparently it ISN'T the cause for throw-by . . . wasn't then, isn't now.

Personally I think so called throw by is caused by improper bolt spring response and has nothing at all to do with hand tension increase.

Except that when you change the cracked or broken hand spring, the problem goes away!!! No need to touch ANYTHING else ( that would include the bolt spring!!!) !!!

The ONLY time it could be the bolt spring is IF the bolt spring is cracked or broken.

2. Bolt blocks below the window are a solution in search of a problem for normal function (in my opinion) as they are farther away (less leverage) from the cylinder notch and window linked by the bolt to stop rotation. The screw purchase at the bolt base has plenty of leverage in it's position and is more than adequate to handle the lateral torque imparted by cylinder stoppage energy especially in a well fit bolt and window mate up. I can see a possible useful function for window support against batter in fanning revolvers but the cylinder notch is what takes the real beating an fanning is a nonsensical mishandling of a revolver.

I really don't think you understand how a bolt block is fitted so therefore you don't grasp what it actually does. Have you ever made and installed one? It minimizes bolt slop to the point that almost always the hand has to be stretched to have sufficient carry up for correct timing. Mechanical accuracy is what me and my customers expect and that exactly what they get.
So, it answers "built-in" slop so it is an answer to an existing situation before it becomes a problem.

 

[D Yager]

Holy smokes...another word salad explanation of how the single action works. Do you realize that a lot of what you are saying makes no sense? You didn't answer my questions...AGAIN... You seem to think that most of the work we do on these revolvers is a scam. You offer no back up to your goofy explanations so the point is moot. Mike is absolutely right on the bolt guide, you won't get precision timing without a bolt guide. Get out your alleged copy of Khunhausens shop manual on Colt single actions and read the part on bolt guides. While you're at it read about the hand and spring tensions. Those supposed weak coil springs you mentioned will last the lifetime of the pistol, so again no back up to your claim. As I have stated before if you don't want to modify your stuff don't modify it, that's your call. By the way I looked at the spring material from a tape measure and came to the conclusion it's a bit too light for bolt springs and really light for hand springs. It certainly has uses for other purposes.

 

[45D]

3, Cap rakes I have found to be unnecessary when the nipples are adjusted (diamond filed in a hand drill) to the caps used, hammer face clearance is adjusted and the safety pin notch is relieved of all sharp and battered corners.

You're obviously not a competition shooter.

I am an enthusiast of the action shield to keep debris and fouling out of Walker guts when flat head riveted in place of the hammer body cross cut which is a weakening action that hooks debris or needs to be filled to prevent it .

You're welcome.
I nor any customer has had a hammer failure to date!! Heck, you're just on your first one

4. I especially like well fit tool steel wedges in tandem with an end fit arbor plug of solid steel for ultimate peperformance

Haven't seen a need for that type of wedge as the wedges today are really good.

5. I don't care for drilling and tapping (weakening) the end of arbor slots for factory wedge adjustment screws.

Yes sir, i get that. You only work on your's, you're not a competition shooter, and i don't care about being in the wedge making business.
I like my setup better than yours. I've set up many Championship revolvers (open-top and top strap) and whether the customer is a competitor or not, they have a revolver that is ready.

Mike

 

[45D]

The very fact that a coil and plunger works is proof that there is no gain of hand spring tension in the hand stroke rise as it can only be decreased by the leverage lose as the plunger contact moves closer to the pivot in the rise.

Well, actually . . . they don't work very well as "Ruger run around" has been posted about many times ( THAT'S the FACT!)! Funny thing, I can display throw-by "at will" with a factory ROA but it doesn't happen after MY hand spring upgrade. The bolt has absolutely nothing to do with it as the hammer doesn't cycle back far enough for bolt drop. Likewise, the bolt dropping on the cylinder the millisecond before lockup ( with its 3-4 lbs worth of force) is negligible.

Mike

 

[M. De Land]

Well, actually . . . they don't work very well as "Ruger run around" has been posted about many times ( THAT'S the FACT!)! Funny thing, I can display throw-by "at will" with a factory ROA but it doesn't happen after MY hand spring upgrade. The bolt has absolutely nothing to do with it as the hammer doesn't cycle back far enough for bolt drop. Likewise, the bolt dropping on the cylinder the millisecond before lockup ( with its 3-4 lbs worth of force) is negligible.

Mike

Even with a stiffer coil and longer plunger the leverage reduction remains in the hand rise thus lesson-ing it's tension on the ratchet tooth because the plunger contact to the hand is fixed in the chimney and is moving closer to the pivot in the rise, again proving hand tension has zero to do with rotation reduction. My guess is that the overall increase from the stiffer coil spring and longer plunger is maintaining more firm engagement with the tooth into lock up eliminating any hand back off (crowding) from the tooth and the bolt tension drag. This is what I meant by coinsidental occurance. The leverage is still being reduced in the rise but the increased plunger pressure is adequate to keep the hand in more firm tooth contact until lock up. The only way the hand could have any effect on rotation reduction is if the bolt hops the notch and the hand nose drags on the back ramp of the tooth which does not occur in normal lock up stroke. It does accure as soon as the bolt unlocks, clears notch and the new stroke begins.
Remember the hand contact and spring tension, with the ratchet tooth in the cock stroke, is from below and pushing upward until it is stopped by the bolt drop into the cylinder notch. There is simply no mechanical means of rotation reduction by the hand into lock up. This is made evident by the hand length test while slow cycling with thumb drag on the cylinder into lock up.
Again there is no tension gain on the hand in the stroke rise and even if there were the hand being not physically attached to the tooth, has any means of reducing the rotation velocity. The only member capable of rotation energy check is the bolt powered by its spring . This is why early bolt drop has benefit but even the bolt friction is over powered by the hand stroke mechanical advantage and the cylinder rotation speed increase into lock up !

 

[M. De Land]

Holy smokes...another word salad explanation of how the single action works. Do you realize that a lot of what you are saying makes no sense? You didn't answer my questions...AGAIN... You seem to think that most of the work we do on these revolvers is a scam. You offer no back up to your goofy explanations so the point is moot. Mike is absolutely right on the bolt guide, you won't get precision timing without a bolt guide. Get out your alleged copy of Khunhausens shop manual on Colt single actions and read the part on bolt guides. While you're at it read about the hand and spring tensions. Those supposed weak coil springs you mentioned will last the lifetime of the pistol, so again no back up to your claim. As I have stated before if you don't want to modify your stuff don't modify it, that's your call. By the way I looked at the spring material from a tape measure and came to the conclusion it's a bit too light for bolt springs and really light for hand springs. It certainly has uses for other purposes.

It may be a bit light for the Walker as I have not replace mine yet but the spring stock has worked perfectly in all manor of other single action guns it has been used in and not one has failed to this point or demonstrated any notch hop.
I'm not a revolver "tuner" per say as I get into more complicated operations of barrel fitting that requires machine work, thread cutting, chamber reaming , part making , heat treating, barrel lapping, crowning, case coloring, rust bluing etc. and have worked on many models of percussion revolver, flint and caplock single shot pistols, as they have come in over 45 years.
I have no idea of the count , as if that has anything to do with workmanship quality or skill level. I show the pictures of actual work done when applicable and let them testify for themselves.

 

[D Yager]

If that's so why can't you grasp the concept of how these revolvers work? If you're so great at this why can't you accept what has been discussed. I know what works and have tried to show you and explain it but you want to fight about it and come up with ridiculous long winded explanations. I don't believe there is much of a count on what revolvers you have fixed. I myself have done most of the same work you listed and can commend you on some of it but not on the revolvers. There is just no understanding there and no desire to learn. As to the spring on your Walker bolt that tape measure spring stock should work just fine if it worked on other pistols. You really don't need a huge powerful spring for the bolt. Where the stronger spring tensions are needed is the on the hand.. and I know you don't want hear it and will make up a long winded explanation..again... for throw by prevention. The spring and plunger set up works well at preventing throw by whether or not you choose to believe it. So spare us the long winded rant and move on. This is starting to remind me of a 6 year old child wanting to be the center of attention. That child has a temper tantrum when someone ain't paying attention to him or agreeing with everything he says. Show some self respect and get past it.

 

[45D]

. . . plunger pressure is adequate to keep the hand in more firm tooth contact until lock up.

Exactly! Adequate or sufficient.
But then you'll say -

There is simply no mechanical means of rotation reduction by the hand into lock up.

So for some reason the spring decides to quit applying pressure?
You can't have it both ways sir! It either does or it doesn't.

Mike