Damascus (Twist) Barrels- Who shoots them?

[Herman Karl]

We hold them in trust we must account for them to those that come after
Feltwad

Beautiful! I found a period case in England and had it fitted out here for my Westley Richards. I recently purchased a Westley Richards percussion gun made 1850.

 

[graybeard]

My father told me as a boy, in the 1930s, never to shoot Damascus or twist barrels. As a young man he had been at a gathering where a Damascus barrel blew up. He said he was told that over the years rust had a chance to penetrate the metal strands and weakened the barrel. graybeard

 

[Herman Karl]

Robin,
Didn't see your post.
V busy, but must say re. your barrel;
One swallow doesn't make a summer. Most Were Not made that way. Period.

Also, No, your old pal did not know more about Damascus than the people who made it. And this for two reasons off the top of my head;
1, Not all Damascus is the same. He obviously lumped all damascus together by using this blanket statement.
(Read even Greener to get a grasp of this)
2, The men who made this 'damascus ' could weld it successfully. Your old mate could not.

Looking at the breech or anywhere of a twist /damscus barrel is in most cases futile, as nearly everyone knows how they were made.
I too have had a good few All Damascus rifle barrels. No tubes, No liners and No trouble. (Alex Henry double, was maybe the best)
I have roof to fix and snow forecast for tomorrow. Best be on.

Best wishes,
R.

Gentleman,
When properly welded damascus or twisted steel barrels (pattern welded barrels) are a contiguous piece of metal. The barrels are forge welded. Forge welding is a form of diffusion welding; adjoining pieces of metal molecularly bond. There is nothing to unravel. The pattern, which is revealed by etching, manifests the different metallurgy and twisting of ribands that compose the billet. This is a very informative site on making damascus barrels:http://www.damascus-barrels.com/index.html; the movie is well worth ordering. If the pattern wears off, it can be restored; see, for example, .

I highly recommend reading “A Blow-Up Post-Mortem: Continuing The Series in Support of Damascus Barrel,” by Drew Hause in the Double Gun Journal, 2016, v. 27, issue 3, p. 17-25. It is “the first published Metallographic Examination and Failure Analysis of a Pattern Welded barrel burst.” I’ve attached the conclusions. He states, “The idea that Damascus barrels are a mass of rusting wields, voids, slag, flux, and corrosion is wrong.”

I have not examined rifled damascus barrels. However, I forged welded a short section of barrel in a barrel making workshop using 18thcentury techniques. The welded seam is undetectable both in cross-section and plan view. Before deep boring was practicable barrels were made from a skelp, shaped into a cylinder, and forge welded resulting in a seamless tube. It seems to me that since a damascus barrel is a contiguous piece of metal there should be no problem cutting the rifling. Greener states, “in rifles the barrels are welded from thicker ribands and welded upon smaller mandrels.”

 

[Feltwad]

The method in the video I use only when Birmingham Black early steel barrels for twist Damascus barrels I use my own recipe of Damascus browning which is a slow rust brown
Feltwad

 

[Feltwad]

According to the Book Of Trades published in the 1700,s gun barrels were formed by wrapping a mixture of iron around a mandrel in one foot lengths thicker at the breech which were then heated and place on a mandrel and joined at the joints . This was continued until the desired barrel length was obtained , to require the twist the barrel then was heated to a red hot for around three inches at a time and place in a vice and the other end is introduced into a square piece of iron and turned with a handle like a auger. This resulted that the heated part of the portion of the barrel obtained a spiral direction known has twisted , this was continued the full length of the barrel . the barrel was then bored to the required bore and the outside of the barrel was finish by grinding on a hand turned granite round wheel .
Felltwad

 

[Herman Karl]

Feltwad,


Did you look at the damascus barrel site http://www.damascus-barrels.com/index.html? It clearly explains the process. I highly recommend that you buy the DVD, which documents making damascus barrels in the early 20thcentury – the process is essentially identical to that of the 18th century. I’ve attached Greener’s description of forging a dasmascus barrel. However, a picture is worth a thousand words and the DVD is very instructive – it will inform this discussion. Somewhere on my google book list I have the Board of Trade treatise and other 18thcentury treatises on gun making. What you cite is the process of twisting the ribands that compose the billet that is formed around the mandrel. The mandrel does not extend the entire length of the barrel – it could never be removed. It is a short piece of iron around which the iron is twisted in the case of damascus as it is forge welded; it keeps the section of barrel being welded from collapsing. Forge welding requires a high heat (red heat is much too low). The heat is almost white hot and close to melting temperature (I’ve melted a piece of iron or two by by not paying attention at a critical point of heat!). When taken from the fire the welding temperature can only be maintained for a minute or so -- it takes many firings to make a barrel. I’ve attached my essay on forging an 18th century barrel. It explains the forging process to make a barrel from a single piece of iron, but the forge welding process is the same for welding the spirals of a dasmascus or twist barrel. There is also a technique called “jumping” that I won’t take the time to explain. Again, visit the dasmascus barrel site and buy the DVD and all will become clear.

By the way, there was a big hubbub when the barrel making process was being “automated” and jobs eliminated. Nothing is new under the sun.

 

[Herman Karl]

According to the Book Of Trades published in the 1700,s gun barrels were formed by wrapping a mixture of iron around a mandrel in one foot lengths thicker at the breech which were then heated and place on a mandrel and joined at the joints . This was continued until the desired barrel length was obtained , to require the twist the barrel then was heated to a red hot for around three inches at a time and place in a vice and the other end is introduced into a square piece of iron and turned with a handle like a auger. This resulted that the heated part of the portion of the barrel obtained a spiral direction known has twisted , this was continued the full length of the barrel . the barrel was then bored to the required bore and the outside of the barrel was finish by grinding on a hand turned granite round wheel .
Felltwad

Feltwad,

After posting my reply I went back and read the chapter on barrel forging in "An essay on shooting. Containing the various methods of forging, boring, and dressing gun barrels, ..." published in 1789 by Magne de Marolles. I think this clarifies and reconciles your citation of the Board of Trade and my reply. I've attached the relevant part of the chapter. Seem to have conflated twisting of ribands with twisting a barrel.

Once again, I highly recommend that you add the damascus barrel DVD to your library.

Herman

 

[robinghewitt]

I don't know enough to profess, all I do is remark, you can never have too much information.

Here is the breech end of my Baker rifle after I removed the rust from the rust pits using organic acid.

The vertical scratches are from my screwdriver making sure 200 years of crut really has gone. The big hole at the top is the touch, everything else looks a bit horizontal.

 

[Newtire]

Very pleased you like it, Newtire!

Here is another set of barrels, (Pritchard, (Southampton if I remember right) Have used it a lot for game birds and clays;

View attachment 883 View attachment 884 Must have missed this the first time through. Would be almost afraid to take something like that out into the field and shoot it but would be a real shame also to let it just sit around not to ever be shot.


Felix,

I must thank you for taking the time to write such thoroughly detailed, and logical logical replies in this thread.
Very good work if I may say so.

Richard.

 

[Herman Karl]

Feltwad,


Did you look at the damascus barrel site http://www.damascus-barrels.com/index.html? It clearly explains the process. I highly recommend that you buy the DVD, which documents making damascus barrels in the early 20thcentury – the process is essentially identical to that of the 18th century. I’ve attached Greener’s description of forging a dasmascus barrel. However, a picture is worth a thousand words and the DVD is very instructive – it will inform this discussion. Somewhere on my google book list I have the Board of Trade treatise and other 18thcentury treatises on gun making. What you cite is the process of twisting the ribands that compose the billet that is formed around the mandrel. The mandrel does not extend the entire length of the barrel – it could never be removed. It is a short piece of iron around which the iron is twisted in the case of damascus as it is forge welded; it keeps the section of barrel being welded from collapsing. Forge welding requires a high heat (red heat is much too low). The heat is almost white hot and close to melting temperature (I’ve melted a piece of iron or two by by not paying attention at a critical point of heat!). When taken from the fire the welding temperature can only be maintained for a minute or so -- it takes many firings to make a barrel. I’ve attached my essay on forging an 18th century barrel. It explains the forging process to make a barrel from a single piece of iron, but the forge welding process is the same for welding the spirals of a dasmascus or twist barrel. There is also a technique called “jumping” that I won’t take the time to explain. Again, visit the dasmascus barrel site and buy the DVD and all will become clear.

By the way, there was a big hubbub when the barrel making process was being “automated” and jobs eliminated. Nothing is new under the sun.

I need to make a clarification. The first mandrel used in the process of making a dasmascus barrel is full length The dasmascus ribbon is twisted around the full length of the barrel. A thin layer of tin is first wrapped around the mandrel, which apparently allows for the mandrel to be easily withdrawn. The barrel is not welded during this step. For welding the short mandrel is employed as described. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Herman Karl]

Gentlemen,
I end my participation on this thread with photos of several of my pattern welded guns: 1863 Purdey, 1866 Boss, 1850 Westley Richards, 1814 Joseph Manton, and circa 1826-1830 Westley Richard. I hunt with them all.
I've provided documentation for my prior comments for each contributor to read and make up your own mind. Quoting the inimitable Forrest Gump, "That's I've got to say about that."

 

[Feltwad]

Enclosed are images of early iron and also stub twist Damascus barrels from pre 1800 weapons
Feltwad
Early Iron Twist Barrel

Ketland Stub Twist Barrels

Ketland Barrels

Early Iron Damascus Barrels