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I think you should hold off on sawing the barrel.Right now you hold all the cards as to being the damaged party, don't jepordize that by doing anything to either rifle. You can go to small claims court and get a judgement and then move to civil court. Start by sending your greivence and the photos and discription to the builder. Do this by certified mail return reciept requested. Keep a file, you may need it later if the builder doesn't see the light.
Best of luck.
Nit Wit
 
ApprenticeBuilder said:
There does seem to be many details that are slow to come to light, almost in a manipulative manner.

It's obvious there are some who disagree with the OP's reluctance to overtly ID the builder by name, and there are probably others who would have also dropped hints just like the OP (at least in the early stages of the disagreement between builder and buyer). Regardless, enough information was presented very early in the thread that, with a little help from Mr. Google, the company and builder's name could be discovered in about 30seconds.
Regards,
Mike
 
I logged onto this site today after receiving a phone call from someone who has seen this thread and wanted to know the rest of the story. I appreciate the heads up as I have not been here for quite some time.
After reading through the posts, I am encouraged to see that at least some recognize there are two sides to every story. Others still, smell a rat and recognize something just doesn’t sound right about Mr. DeOrian’s tale of woe. He says it’s a very long and drawn-out story so he spares you with the details. It’s not that drawn-out and I’ll be happy to share with you the facts of this incident.
Mr. DeOrian contacted me in 2007 about having a pair of rifles built. After much back and forth that spanned many months, we agreed upon the details and price. I sent him an agreement, spelling out the details, which he signed and returned with his depsoit. At no point in this agreement does it state the rifles are to be as “identical as humanly possible.” They were to be alike.
During the construction phase of this project, I suffered a great personal tragedy in the unexpected death of my young daughter. As you might imagine, this event knocked the wind out of my sails. I don’t mention this to garner any sympathy. Instead, I tell it because when I contacted Mr. De Orien to tell him I wasn’t going to be able to finish the build, he encouraged me to, “stick with it”, “don’t walk away”, “I have the patience of an iceberg”, “take all the time you need.” I took him at his word and plugged along with the build, giving him updates as I went along. I took photos and mailed them to him. In the last stages of the build, Mr. DeOrian had issues with the sideplates not matching. It was then that we had a more detailed discussion about his wishes. He was not happy with them not being identical. I made another sideplate which did match. Unfortunately, it didn’t match the one he wanted. I chalk this up to poor communication. I shipped the rifles and they arrived at his door in mid-February.
Several days after I received notification he had received the rifles, he contacted me by email to tell me how enormously disappointed he was. He told me the rifles weren’t identical, like he thought they were to be. He went on to say that there was debris in the bore of one and it was scored to the point of making it useless. He had other issues as well about one not being identical to the other. In closing, he wanted to know how I was going to rectify the issue.
My response was this: Clearly he was disappointed in what he received. I told him to ship the rifles back to me in the same condition in which he received them. I would give him a complete refund of his money after they were sold. I also told him I wanted to inspect the barrel he was complaining about. If I found it to be unserviceable, I would rebarrel it and sell it. OR”¦ he could keep both rifles and I would refund the labor cost only. I then told him if this resolution wasn’t acceptable, I’d be glad to listen to his resolution proposal.
This was Mr. DeOrian’s response, and I am quoting him here, “A.) Refund the entire amount invested, for parts and labor, minus the cost for shipping, in a timely manner, and I keep both rifles. B.) Refund the entire amount invested, for parts and labor, less one half the cost of the parts for the undamaged rifle, and half the cost of the shipping, in a timely manner, and I keep both rifles.”
For guns that are nothing more than chunks of wood with sewer pipes attached, I think that’s a rather curious proposal. He followed this up by telling me essentially if I didn’t accept his proposal, he would slander me on the many forums of which he is a member.
I did not find his proposal acceptable and told him as much. I told Mr. DeOrian I was not aware of any retailer who would give you a full refund AND allow you to keep the merchandise. I restated my original proposal and closed by telling him that I did not respond well to threats. I gave him until the end of February to make his decision or the transaction would be final. He contacted me at the deadline to tell me he wanted to keep the rifles and a refund of the cost of labor. I sent him a cashier’s check, not wanting to take the chance of him saying I never sent it or some such nonsense. Now to the issue of the vent liner allegedly coming out and nearly killing him. I installed the vent liners on every rifle I have ever built the same way each and every time. I bore the hole with a drill press and the correct-sized bit. The holes are not oval or oblong. I tapped the holes, installed the liners and filed them flush. To this date, I have NEVER had a failure. On to the bore. Mr. DeOrian stated the bore was in terrible condition when he received the rifle. He even took photos to show me just how terrible. It’s the same photo he posted here. I challenge anyone reading this to identify just what his photo shows. It is of such poor quality that whatever it is, it’s anybody’s guess. I told him to ship the rifle back to me for examination. If it was defective, I would rebarrel it. He declined to do so. To this date, I have no idea what the bore looks like. I don’t know what the debris is that allegedly came from the barrel or if it came from the barrel at all. It’s just what he says. This is how I brown all my barrels. I suspend them with a coat hanger by the tang bolt hole and dab on the browning solution. At no time does any solution enter the bore. I ALWAYS neutralize after achieving the desired patina. Mr. DeOrian can make all the claims he wants in order to achieve his threat to slander me on this forum. It’s obvious some jumped on his band wagon without hearing both sides. I can’t help that. I can’t speak intelligently about what he has or hasn’t done with these rifles. I can only tell you the facts as I know them to be. I wasn’t with him at the range and have no idea how many grains he poured down the barrel neither do any of you reading this with the exception, perhaps, of his brother. His review on this website states there were no threads present in the vent liner hole. If there were no threads, why didn’t the liner come out with the first shot? Mr. DeOrian has clearly carried out his threat to slander me on this forum. Now, it’s up to you to separate the wheat from the chaff.
 
Sorry, Swampy, but you didn't see me logged on here. I haven't been on this forum in so long I had to send a request for my password! Rick
 
I have no dog in this fight, but I have NEVER seen a barrel in that condition, and I have seen some in pretty bad shape. I can't see anyone purposely sending a product such poor condition. :2
 
The devil is in the details;
The sound was odd and the recoil twisted and rolled into his chest and face.

Recoil? from the ball that needed to be removed with a CO2 dis-charger? In all fairness, there would be some recoil from the firing of the liner; but weighing about a tenth of what the ball weighed, and recoil being proportional to the mass of the projectile. Sorry, can't help it, I'm from the "show me" state.

A little puzzled why the guns, if so defective, weren't returned. I'd return bad product to Cabela's, or Bass Pro, or Don's down the road. I know in PA, that is in fact codified in law. The seller MUST be allowed 1 (one) chance to remedy the complaint with any product.

Pictures of dirty cleaning patches and a handful of crud from the composter shows nothing.
 
Fred,

Five post after the deal with the C02 removal . . . he makes a correction . . .

As we see . . . we had the chance to return them . . . but wanted to keep them . . . and now he wants to saw the one barrel in half . . .
 
I am curious as to what kind of finish was requested on the rifles, the one that all of the pictures are of the outside seems to be at an advanced stage of neglect.


I appreciate the builder stepping up to address this, it helps to form a more complete picture of events.
 
One thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post. Because Mr. DeOrian was so put out about the amount of time it took to complete both rifles (in reality, it was about 2 years. I'm not a full-time builder) I deducted $750.00 from the final price as my way of apologizing for going over the time I told him I would have them finished and saying thank you for giving me the time to complete the project. I accepted the cost of labor to build 1 rifle as my final payment. Agree or disagree, I felt the resolution was very generous. The devil, is in fact, in the details. Mr. DeOrain has had these rifles since mid-February. This alleged near-death experience happened in July. Why has it taken more than a month to start the defamation? Rick
 
Gobbler,
I have to say that I was one of those who jumped on the band wagon upon hearing the original story, perhaps to quickly. Without passing judgement, as I also have no dog in this fight, I am very pleased that you responded in defense of your reputation and placed the other side of the story on the table. I hope only that the issue can be resolved in a satisfactory manner regarding both yourself and the brothers.
Mark :hatsoff:
 
GobblerKnob said:
Sorry, Swampy, but you didn't see me logged on here. I haven't been on this forum in so long I had to send a request for my password! Rick

I appologize for that as there is a member "globblersknob" who I saw and assumed was you. :redface:
 
I would give him a complete refund of his money after they were sold.

This is the bit that gets me.
What if you couldn't sell the rifles?
Where's the motivation to sell two rifles that have been returned as sub-standard? (One, apparently, un-shootable.)

I have no dog in this fight, but one thing that really does stand out is the fact that the vent-liner hole is obviuosly elliptical. I can tell you for a certainty (I was a machinist for many years) that in the picture showing no threads at the 12 o'clock position, no threads have been cut in that portion of the hole. There is no visual evidence, that I can discern, of any stripping or erosion. The threads are simply not there, as evidenced by the tapering of the threads, toward the top of the hole, at the 10 o'clock 2 o'clock positions . I have to believe from this, that the OP is telling the truth about the liner blowing out. To me, this in itself should warrant a barrel replacement.

The bore-light picture is very poor indeed. All I can make out is that there are 2 big scars crossing the rifling. I have no idea how they could've been caused, but I highly doubt that browning can have caused such regular irregularities. That said, if Mr Getz confirms that the barrel is junk (& can show that it hasn't been fired repeatedly) a new barrel should be supplied by the builder.

I think there is fault on both sides here. The OP should have returned the rifles (without a doubt) & the builder should've offered an immediate refund.

JMHO, YMMV etc....
 
GobblerKnob said:
... I wasn’t with him at the range and have no idea how many grains he poured down the barrel neither do any of you reading this with the exception, perhaps, of his brother. His review on this website states there were no threads present in the vent liner hole. If there were no threads, why didn’t the liner come out with the first shot?...

Thank you for posting your side of this story.

Regarding the above quote from your post, I was the person to whom the second rifle was gifted. I was the person who did all the loading and shooting, including the last shot when the vent liner blew out. The powder charge was 70 grains of GOEX 3fg under a .495 patched ball, as stated in an earlier post. Perhaps you want to review the initial post wherein was stated "The threads for the liner were only cut into less than half of the side of the vent hole." Then you may wish to look at the posted photos of the hole where the vent liner had been installed.

I was also the one who cleaned the debris out of the barrel of the first rifle. It looked to me like some sort of vegetable matter mixed with dirt. I took the photos of the damaged bore. I am sorry I don't own a borescope which would enable me to take better-quality pictures. I would truly like to see the interior of that bore and will do so by sawing it in half, as stated, after it is received from Mr. Getz.

GobblerKnob said:
...This alleged near-death experience happened in July....

Perhaps you would be kind enough to help me out here. I couldn't find any reference to a "near-death experience" in any of DD1's posts. Maybe you could point it out to me. All I can find are references to the vent liner blowing out. Yes, it nearly hit him. Yes, it might have drawn blood or put out an eye if it had hit him, but "near-death experience"? That seems a bit over the top...but that's just me.

GobblerKnob said:
Why has it taken more than a month to start the defamation? Rick

The reason it has taken more than a month to make these posts is because we take the matter very seriously. We did not want to jump to conclusions.
 
I can tell you for a certainty (I was a machinist for many years) that in the picture showing no threads at the 12 o'clock position, no threads have been cut in that portion of the hole. There is no visual evidence, that I can discern, of any stripping or erosion. The threads are simply not there, as evidenced by the tapering of the threads, toward the top of the hole, at the 10 o'clock 2 o'clock positions

I have no dog in this fight either, I am interested in the truth though

What I see when I look at the hole where the liner was, as well as the liner itself with the collapsed/sheared threads on one side( with a background in building longrifles ) The threads were stripped clean as the liner exited the barrel ( sheared off ).

The lower edge of the pan on the lock would have most likely covered the lower edge of the liner and the results of this would be that the liner would have tipped/tumbled while exiting the barrel.

The material the barrel is made from is softer than the vent liner which looks to be a Chambers, judging from the fine threads.
 
I've threaded a few things in my time and I don't understand how you can thread only one side of a hole? The tap pretty much "screws" into the hole when cutting the threads. I don't see how it could not contact the full circumference of the hole. I couldn't thread just one side of a hole if I tried. Just thinking out loud here.
 
Well one thing is for certain - the liner exited the barrel after about 50 shots. If it was installed correctly it wouldn't have.

And how does the builder explain all of the manure shoved down the other barrel? Especially when John Getz says that the damage to the bore happened during the browning process.

GW
 
OK, now ya got me thinkin, and it is way too late for that. If the hole was oval, the tap would try to self-center and leave some thin threads at either end. On the other hand, if the hole was eliptical, the tap would try to self-center in the large end leaving no threads on the small side.
But, the gunsmith in question stated the hole was drilled on a drill press making it pretty hard to drill an eliptical hole without using 2 different drill bits AND moving the barrel when changing the bits. Not likely.
I just went back and looked at the pics again and it looks to me that there is a thread left at the bottom of the smooth part of the hole. From what I can see in the pics it looks to me that the liner pulled the threads out of one side of the hole.
I am wondering if the shooter was distracted during loading and double loaded? Even so, a quality barrel should be able to stand that.
 
I just checked the size of the hole with my Helios vernier dial caliper. As best as I can measure, the hole is about .230" x .260" on the outside, and about .215" x .230" as deep inside as the jaws will reach.

At this point it seems impossible to tell whether or not there were threads all around the circumfurence of the hole. There may have been but a portion were not as deep as needed. What I do know is that there aren't threads in a significant portion of the hole now, as is shown in the posted pictures.

There is one (1) thread below the smooth area.

No, I didn't double-load. I would have known because my ramrod would not have gone down to my load marker.
 
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