Dangerous mass produced muzzleloaders

[Loyalist Dave]

Perhaps not Mr. Phariss but without further explanation by the person who mentioned this, a person who had experience with other two piece barrels would not consider the Ultra-Hi product that much different. The wording of the post implied any two piece barrel was bad, not simply the Ultra-Hi product. Perhaps you can elighten the readers?

LD

 

[Dphar]

Perhaps not Mr. Phariss but without further explanation by the person who mentioned this, a person who had experience with other two piece barrels would not consider the Ultra-Hi product that much different. The wording of the post implied any two piece barrel was bad, not simply the Ultra-Hi product. Perhaps you can elighten the readers?

LD

Perhaps should properly describe the two piece barrels and where they are joined and if they have ever seen such barrels sectioned to CONFIRM they are two pieces. I have never heard of any reputable maker making 2 piece small arms barrels.
Some BL double barrels are "mono-blocked" but the mono-blocks are bored and the one piece barrels are slid into the mono-block and bonded.
Other then the Ultra-Hi cited I have never seen photos of or heard of 2 piece barrels. I could be wrong, there is a lot of junk out there.
I would point out that large artillery often has multipiece barrels. This for a 16"/50 caliber Mark 7 gun.
"The built-up gun is constructed of liner, tube, jacket, three hoops, two locking rings, tube and liner locking ring, yoke ring and screw box liner. Some components were autofretted. Typical of United States naval weapons built in the 1940s, the bore was chromium plated for longer barrel life. It uses a Welin breech block that opens downwards and is hydraulically operated. The screw box liner and breech plug are segmented with stepped screw threads arranged in fifteen sectors of 24 degrees each."
The barrels weighed
Dan

 

[Dphar]

I havn't been shooting BP as long as some on this forum. I have, however, been shooting long enough and been around enough BP firearms ( mostly percussion) to know that it's normally NOT the firearms fault. I would guess that someone tampering with the breech plug, nipple installed incorrectly, using the wrong powder...stuff like that, causes many rumors to circulate and make the Factory made M'lers look bad in some cases. I'm sure there have been incidents that the factory was in the wrong..but I'd say that's fairly rare.

While this may be true of guns made with actual barrel steel. I.E. steels approved for gun barrels by steel makers, metallurgists and engineers, it is NOT the truth when marginal materials are used and there are a lot of unsuitable barrels out there. Some have failed...
There was a rash of failures of early TCs. These stopped like flipping a switch. This tells me there was a material change. I am SURE the buyers did not suddenly become enlightened.
Poor quality materials can fail at pressures far under the "tensile" due to very poor resistance the shock and internal pressure. "Poor hoop strength" is the term I have read in articles written by a metallurgist.
Other than the old "Buckskin Report" NO magazine has even printed ANYTHING about this. Its bad for business since it irritates advertisers. Being a resident of the small town where the Buckskin Report was published and being a friend of all the principles I can tell you that TELLING THE TRUTH is what killed the magazine. Its shame to since they would print things nobody else would touch. Kinda like "Consumer Reports" for BP shooters. Reports of blowups came in regularly. Often with new stories and photos.
Now of course nobody wants to hear it since lots of people shoot guns with deficient barrels from the metallurgical standpoint and often there are problems with the breeching as well. Both problems could be called "endemic".
I know barrel makers who describe these deficient barrels are "pipe bombs".
But ML shooters are notoriously cheap. They will buy cheap over quality about 95% of the time. Worse it is impossible to educate them since they are all experts. Since a barrel made of the gold standard for gun barrels (4150, the military started using it about the time WW-II started) will cost significantly more than one made of leaded screw stock, the "experts" will choose the 12L14 barrel.
BTW there are recorded instances of people successfully (no kaboom other than muzzle blast) shooting smokeless (how I could not say) and "duplex loads" from TCs. Then there were the the unexplained explosions with BP.
Another thing at BP pressures and velocities a short started projectile ANYWHERE in the bore should at worst BULGE the barrel. It is bursts its poor steel. But of course the experts thing a short started ball with blow a barrel. And it will if the barrel is a brittle, unsuitable steel. 4150? I have had a Garand barrel for a time shot with a plug of dirt about 2" behind the front sight. Bullet impacted at about 2600 at least. Bulged the barrel. It was shot for years afterwards. Why would a low pressure, low velocity load shatter a GOOD barrel?
Rings are the norm in modern firearms with bore obstructions (unless 416 stainless) but people expect MLs to "break". Why is this the case?

Dan

 

[Shine]

Yeah , what he said :grin:

 

[Dphar]

Some articles. Readers should be able to read these. But the different pages my not be in order. The "Tough and Brittle" is the important one. http://s72.photobucket.com/user/DP...sc=1&multi=1&addtype=local&media=image&page=1

 

[will5a1]

Thanks for posting those pages, I intend to save them for reference, I wish I had a full set of The Buckskin Report. I agree with you regarding John Baird, an honest man unafraid to publish what he tought needed publishing - I know, of at least seem to remember, him being sued a number of times for what he published. I also think, and I may be wrong, it has been a lot of years, that he led the fight against the excise taxes that the IRS was imposing on custom gunmakers.

 

[fcderosa]

Shooting in the military since the age of seventeen, 12 of the 20+years being a Master Gunner, I've been called to investigate numerous range incidents. What I've learned over the years is; stupid is cumulative. While it may not be one specific facet which causes an incident, it is a cumulation of seemingly little errors that lead to a catastrophic event. All too often those involved suffer from selective memory as to the events leading up to the event, or in an effort to evade blame, leave out pertinent facts. All too often the term “equipment failure” is used as a scape goat, even when;

a) The equipment was used beyond recommended safe tolerances.
b) The equipment was mishandled.
c) The equipment failed due to existing damages brought about through prior abuse and mishandling.


I have seen very few incidents where it was truly gun failure, more often than not; it was operator headspace and timing. It is a shame there is no Snopes specifically for firearms. Guns are much like cars. Purchasing one, the gun needs to be researched and test driven. Some people like Mercedes and some (being all they can afford), like Yugo’s. As to how good it holds up is based on how you use and maintain it.

Have fun with your Miroku, I have a Kentucky Pistol that I love shooting. It never has given me any issue. Keep shooting yours till you find something you like more, then buy it and decide whether to keep it or sell it,,, ,,, always a sucky decision to make. That story always starts with; you know,, :hmm: ,, I use to own one, regret ever selling it

 

[edw.marshall]

Miroku is the manu.of the excellent Tennessee mountain rifle & Tenn. squirrel rifle that was sold by Dixie Gunworks for 20 years & was contracted by Browning to build some of their fine firearms. No need to be concerned about the quality of their products.

 

[Leatherbark]

They also made the Jonathan Browning mountain rifles. If they ever made "junk" guns I have not heard of it.

Geo. T.

My Jonathan Browning Mountain rifle says "Made in USA" on the barrel. Did they make the rest of it in Japan?

Bob

 

[Leatherbark]

I have a Miroku 45 muzzleloading barrel I bought at a gunshow. I cannot tell if it is two piece or not as I cannot see a seam. It does have a really finely machined breech plug with fine threads and the barrel has only 4 grooves. I wonder if the later ones were of better quality?
The breech plug is cast though.

Bob

 

[Billnpatti]

I am not sure about that particular brand of rifle but Maruko is known for making good modern guns. However, back during the late 50s and early 60s companies such as Herters was selling some real junk that I understand was made in Japan. If your rifle dates from that time period, I would be a bit leery of it. But if it was made after sometime around 1970, it is likely okay. If you have any doubts, take it to a qualified gunsmith and have it examined.

 

[Alden]

Agree. While for my adult life it is clear something from Miroku is at least above average that was not always the case. For a good two decades after the war "Made in Japan" was like saying "Made in China" or, dare I say, "Made in India" today. It was such junk they even named a city Usa just so they could stamp items "MADE IN USA"!

 

[Shine]

The Miroku factory is unmarked no signs just a plain building. The people that work there are bussed in from a location off site in a blacked out bus. Its the only gun builder in japan with area 51 security LOL. Again Ill say I refuse to buy a gun made in a country that wont allow its people to have one too.

 

[Alden]

One is allowed to own guns in Japan. They are very limited and controlled as is ammo itself.

 

[Dphar]

The Ultra Hi versions are not high quality.
A photo of the lock area would help.
The only 2 piece barrel Ultra Hi that I know of was a smoothbore that has an octagonal to round barrel.

Dan

 

[Rifleman1776]

I'll toss in a few personal experiences.
I wrote for Baird and the BR. Fine man, great magazine but he was no businessman. One never calls out millionaires if one does not have the funds to match the raise. He as bound to get shut down. Businesses must protect themselves even if they are in the wrong.
El Junko ml guns came from all over the planet in the early 70s. I had a CVA 'kentucky' flinter that had a two pieces barrel. Someone here told me CVA never made two piece barrels. :shocked2: I had one.
Yes, most (all?) magazines shy away from making negative comments about products. As a writer I know there are ways to skirt openly stating something is not good. I once hoped to start a career writing for gun/outdoors magazines. I submitted a gun review to one magazine. The editor wrote back a nice long letter telling me he was interested in me for his staff if I would avoid saying negative things about companies who advertised their products in his magazine. I did not re-write the review but kept his letter for a long time. End of that career move.

 

[btech]

After 30 years of investigating chemical plant accidents, I agree. The vast majority are due are someone operating something they didn't understand or taking shortcuts.

 

[Dphar]

Curious to hear people experiences or knowledge of internet folklore.

I recently bought a Ultra Hi made by Miroku in Japan. Some say they're dangerous.

The Ultra-hi guns far predate the internet.

I finally broke down and looked up a couple of Ultra-Hi items from the old "Buckskin Report". This was sold for $94.50 in 1976 as the "Untra-Hi Minuteman Kit".

The threaded joint in the barrel.

The exterior of the breech.

The interior of the breech.

Spot welded underlugs.

Here is a report from a gunsmith in the letters section of the Feb 76 "Report"

There is another concerning another junk ML I recall but not sure it was an ultra-hi and its not in the index I have which does not cover the last years. But this one would not fire and when the "drum"(it does not look like a drum and this I believe was a rifle similar to the one in the letter above) was turned to remove it it fell out after rotating 1/4 turn.
I am sure there are people here that see some of my stuff as "alarmist" or some such. But its based to things I have seen, read or experienced or people I know have. I don't just dream this stuff up to make people feel bad afterall.
But junk is junk and allowing people to shoot these "firearms" without at least a warning is immoral.
BTW though it was sold to be assembled and shot (according to the instructions) the loading rod was 2 5/16" shorter than the barrel.
Dan

 

[Dphar]

I would also like to add that without some prior knowledge of how these things were made "I could not make this stuff up".

Dan

 

[Rifleman1776]

As bas as all that is I choked when I read "Japanese replica of a CVA". :shocked2: Replicating a replica?