Deer Charges

[hanshi]

Yeah, that sounds about right. I can't shoot that well and 3F has become a habit more than anything else.

 

[hanshi]

hanshi, you've been around the block... I think your fishing. :grin:

True, but it was in an old Yugo with a bad muffler. :rotf:

 

[rodwha]

Wasn't the Walker designed with bringing a big animal, such as a horse, down with a moderate "rifle" load with its much shorter barrel?
Distance makes all the difference doesn't it?

 

[longcruise]

Any "been there; done thats" around?

Well, even if you are just "fishing" (trolling :haha: ), It's a worthwhile discussion.

My deer loads with my first rifle (.50 TC Hawkinn, hey wasn't that everybodies first rifle back in the '70's? :wink: ) have been all over the board.

But, first to answer your question; I have killed one deer with that rifle with a prb loaded over 60 grains of ff. The range was about 50 or 60 yards and the hit was in the lungs. The damage to the lungs was more than sufficient to bring about a near instant kill. The large mulie doe walked a few steps then layed down dead.

Other deer killed over the years with that same rifle have ranged over 100 gr ff under a 370 gr maxi ball; 90 gr ff under a .490 prb; 80 gr ff under a .490 prb and 70 gr ff under a .490 prb. All the deer taken with these loads were either large mulie does or mid size mulie bucks. None went more that 50 yards after the hit except one taken with the 100 gr ff and 370 maxi. That medium buck was hitquartering slightly toward me and just behind the onside front leg. Maxi took out the onside lung, went thru the back edge of the offside lung and damaged the liver after passing through the diaphragm. That deer traveled further than any animal I have ever killed with any weapon, including arrows. While I reloaded and kept my eye on the buck, it walked away and around a copse of evergreens and out of sight. Once reloaded, I followed quietly and peaked around the trees for a look. Spotted the deer lying down facing away with ears drooping but head still up. A careful sneak allowed me to approach and put another maxi into the back of the deers head. The deer had traveled 150 yards.

That was the last time I shot anything with a conical out of an ml! :shake:

 

[Spikebuck]

That was the last time I shot anything with a conical out of an ml! :shake:

I'm not sure that I understand this last statement. A hole is a hole regardless of what made it. If the conical hit where you were aiming (my aim point would not have been behind the shoulder on a quartering into shot unless it was extremely shallow) then are you saying that the deer didn't die right away because it was a conical that made the hole? Or didn't it hit where you were aiming?

A round ball that made the same damage path wouldn't have killed the deer any more quickly. If that deer had a pretty good lung left, that is probably why it was still alive as they can last quite a while on one lung. The hole in the diaphragm should have collapsed both lungs, but I've seen internal matter get pulled into the hole and create enough blockage that there must still be some vacuum in the chest cavity to allow breathing (though I'm sure not optimal).

 

[Trench]

I think you should always hunt with highest charge that produces good hunting accuracy with your rifle AND for the shooter.

I find that for myself stout charges bring out the worst in bad shooting habits for myself such as flinching. So, If I can find an accurate load in the 60gr-70gr range of charges, I will use it regardless of the caliber for deer.

My first deer was killed with a .50 at 40yds using 60gr of 2F. My 2nd deer was killed at about 20 yards with 60gr of 2F in my .58.

 

[longcruise]

I'm not sure that I understand this last statement. A hole is a hole regardless of what made it

Well, already I regret the conical vs prb statement! :redface: It's not what the thread was about and I should have stayed away from that last comment. But... just to expand it a bit more since your post deserves some clarification.

It was a barely quartering to me shot that destroyed the onside lung and damaged the offside as well as the liver. Honestly, I think an identical hit with an rb would have done more damage. All my round ball hits have done more tissue dammage than maxi ball hits. I don't agree with the *hole is a hole* pov based on having autopsied several kills of both types of projectile. The damage to lung tissues done by prb has been greater than that done by the maxi.

An elk hit with the same set with the maxi hitting broadside just behind the shoulder and passing thru both lungs stayed on its feet for a good half minute. Elk will sometimes mill about after being hit not being sure of which way to go and luckily this one did just that. Had he made a run into black timber he would have covered a lot of ground before going down.

Getting back to the OP's question, I would not hesitate to take deer with a .50 rb and 60 grains again. Normally I hunt with a .54 and heavier charges just because elk and deer are on the menu at the same time. This past year however I was not able to pursue elk and carried a light weight .50 loaded with 60 grains of fff. Did not get a shot on two different opportunitesm, but that is a whole nother story! :haha:

 

[FishDFly]

I would think that depends on where you hunt.

From the north land we hear of story's of deer in the 250 to 300 pound range.

In the hill country of Texas, deer are about 60 pounds.

Not a fair evaluation of powder charges when body weight is considered.

 

[hanshi]

All the posts are greatly appreciated; I've learned a lot look forward to reading these posts. Thanks.

 

[smo]

I have taken several deer with loads between 60 & 70 grns. over the years. Most of these shots were in close quarters (50 yards or less) Since I now hunt areas where i'm able to see longer distances I now shoot 90 grns of 3f.

 

[Lonegun1894]

I usually use 70grs FFFg in my .50 and 80grs FFFg in my .54, but have taken a hog that I stumbled on while small game hunting with a load of 30grs FFFg with my .50 caplock. Now this isn't a shot I recommend, and I wasn't after hog, but I also got to 20yds away and a perfect broadside shot on a hog that was about 100-125lbs. At the time, this was my only rifle so it got used for everything, and that hog tasted just as good as if it had been shot with a more powerful load. Like I said, I wouldn't recommend it, but that .490" PRB punched through both lungs and made it out the other side to lodge in a tree. I dug it out and it seemed to have no expansion at all aside from a deformed nose which was probably due to striking the tree. I REALLY prefer warmer loads for hunting larger game like deer and hog though, but 60grs should be plenty out of a .50 for any deer as long at the RB hits true.

 

[diana]

My daughter has killed 4 deer with a White Mountain 50 cal. carbine using 50 grains of 3F BP and a patched RB. All were broadside pass through shots at or under 35 yards. None of these deer left a great bloodtrail but all died within 30 to 40 yards.

 

[flyfisher76544]

In my .50 I use 70 grains of 3F. Now some of the deer here along the coastal area are rather small, but that same load has knocked down hogs that were 200 plus.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

There are way too many variables folks to really get into a definative discussion.

I used 70 grains of 3Fg in my .50, and when I sold it and went to a .54 I use the same load with a .530 ball, and found it extremely accurate out to 100 yards, and with a broadside shot at whitetails out to that distance, I get pass through.

Would I get the same results with much larger whitetails in say Northern PA? Would the load still work if I went after mule deer in Texas?

Would a .440 ball with 60 grains do the same? Well it would have higher muzzle velocity, but the weight of the projectile is much less. What if the .440 was a harder alloy than my all lead? How about if you halved the range to 50 yards as a maximum?

Several years ago Mark Baker let it be known he was using 50 grains of powder in his .50 caliber rifle..., :shocked2: ..., there was a hue and cry, and great gnashing of teeth, the sky darkened, and cries of "unethical", and "irresponsible" and "inhumane" were voiced from many people...

..., but Mr. Baker never stated at what range he uses his load....

Personally I would not use such a light load at 100 yards, but at 40 yards or less, it could be very effective. What if one was in a tree, and shooting down at deer at 20 yards? It is a higher load than that required for black powder handgun hunting in my state (for what it's worth). So again, there are all sorts of variables that play into such a question, and every powder/caliber combination has a limit somewhere.

LD

 

[longcruise]

Well said Dave! :thumbsup:

I started out my ml hunting using large loads and heavy projectiles. As I killed more game and even moreso observed others killing game it became more and more obvious that heavy loads are not needed. Sure, there is a bottom limit but I for one am not going to pursue finding out what it is at the expense of lost game. However, I am confident in the .50 at 60 grains for deer.

Dan Phariss makes an excellent point in regard to the killing power of the rb when he says it does not take heavy charges, but at the same time the heavy charges allow better trajectory for long shots. With his history of success in long range shooting, that is the logical conclusion for himself and others who shoot at that level.

My own effective shot range on game is more in the 50 to 75 yard range so trajectory becomes a non-issue.

 

[Rat Trapper]

Last year I killed a doe with my 45 cal TC Hawken and 70 grains of Triple seven 2f and a .440 Hornady round ball. Normally I would have use a heavier charge, but that load shoots so well and I see lots of you using ligher charges. Deer was 52 yards away and that deer out of 21 deer shot with muzzle loaders went over 200 yards and I had a heck of a time finding her. When we openned her up, damage was more than enough. What does this mean? Well nothing until I have tried it couple more times. Even when shooting deer with modern center fire rifles, sometimes they drop right there and sometimes the run a ways. This I know from having taken over 300 animals with muzzle loaders, shotguns, bow an arrow and modern center fire rifles.

I really like that little 45 TC Hawken and shoot it often. However a bigger caliber is prehaps much better. I'll still be hauling it around in the woods this fall. Sure is hard when ya have a number of great deer rifles to chose from.

 

[Carl Fowler III]

Seems to me all you need to do is bump that powder charge up a bit...accuracy is nice but you need to compliment it with killing power as well!

I drew a tag for hunt'n antelope in N. California and worked on an accurate load for my rifle, figuring I needed tack driving accuracy out to 400 yds...worked on this load all summer and settled on the most accurate load...unfortunately the velocity suffered, but figured it was enough...wrong!

I shot an antelope at 305 yds..3 times thru the lungs, my spotter kept telling me I missed him...what he was seeing was the bullet hitting the dirt after a complete pass thru! When we did an inspection of the wounds we found all 3 holes thru the lungs, but there was absolutely no expansion at all...right bullit wrong velocity for expansion at that range...definite lesson learned!

This is why I want a PRB to completely pass thru any big game animal I hunt...we may not get as violent a wound channel as high powered rifle, but the farther a PRB travels the more damage it will do plus leaves a better blood trail.

I'm planning on gett'n me one of those 6 1/2 pound 45 caliber beauty's for next Fall...but I will max out my load! :v

 

[Lonegun1894]

I hate to burst your bubble, but the further any projectile goes, the less damage it does. The physics of it is simple, but there is a interesting side effect that may be to your advantage at times. Now, weather we are using a PRB or a modern suppository gun as on your hunt, the further from the muzzle the projectile gets, the more velocity is has lost. The slower it is moving, the less it deforms/expands on impact. This is why you may be able to get more penetration at longer range than at close range with high velocity loads. More expansion means more resistance, and means more damage, but less penetration. This is often seen by people using modern high velocity calibers. For example, you didn't say what caliber you used, but a friend uses a .300 Mag (I am trying to convert him to hunt instead of just shoot, but haven't succeded yet). Due to most .308" bullets being designed for .308 Win/.30-06 velocity levels, out of his gun, he get s alot of bloodshot meat at close range because his bullets act like varmint bullets up close, and don't begin acting like a proper meat hunting bullet until they get out to 250-300yds and have had time to slow down some to prevent the kind of violent expansion that they provide up close. Now with MLs, we tend to not get that kind of meat waste like he does, but in the same way, you may get pass throughs at 75-100yds with the same load that doesn't pass through at 25yds.

Having said that, due to the way a RB slows down and the trajectory involved, most of us limit our ranges to about 100yds or maybe slightly over. This is in part due to the sights, in part due to trajectory, and the way the RB slows, but it is a combination of these factors put together that convinced most of us to keep our shots fairly close. Range estimation becomes CRITICAL and a slight mistake on our parts can mean a missed, or even worse, a wounded animal, so please limit your shots to whatever range you fully trust yourself to make good hits with your ML. This means accuracy first and foremost instead of a pursuit of velocity for the same of itself, as the most accurate load usually isn't the fastest one. This is going to mean that you won't be taking 300+ yd shots with RB like you did with your suppository gun. That's ok though, because it makes the hunting much better. I just say this because I used to do the same thing with mine, and while the long shots were good to be able to make, they just weren't hunting. Now let's see you sneak up and take the next one up close with a PRB. :thumbsup:

 

[Carl Fowler III]

There's no bubble to burst, I fully understand how ballistics effect modern bullets and that's why so many types & styles exist...the current ammo makers would like you to believe that they have a magic bullet that works at all velocity's, but we know that's impossible...the trick is to try and pick the right bullet for the common ranges one shoots and the velocity within those ranges!

What I was trying to get across was if you are not getting complete penetration with pass-thru at the ranges you shoot game with a muzzleloader then you should either step up in caliber, increase the powder charge you are currently using, or reduce the distance....a pass thru gives you a bigger wound channel and a much better blood trail! :v

 

[hanshi]

Lonegun, I'm glad you posted so I wouldn't have to. On another forum I had some who argued up and down that penetration decreased with distance and higher prb velocity is the only way to get penetration. Some obviously can't get past what some old, unschooled codger told them when they were kids. At a distance the primary (only) good thing is that two holes develop in game. Here the size of the ball can make a real difference. And as you note, placement is everything.