Definition of *Traditional*?

[bub524]

Whats your definition of *traditional* muzzleloading?
Everybody seems to draw their own lines as to where the cut off is. I know a group of shooters at the range I go to that call themselves traditional and they all shoot traditional MLers, i.e., sidelock, muleys, or underhammers. No in-lines. They show up for their shoots wearing a cowboy hat and and a china made knife with fake antler grips and shoot from a tackle box.
There is a second group I know that are thread counting PC Nazi's that condemn any firearm costing less then $600 that is not custom made, and only PC accouterments and dress, if you spend more on a college education then your outfit you're out. They condemn T/C because they have a coil spring inside that you can't see, but they have a cooler in the back of their lodge under a wool blanket.
Then there is a club I used to belong to for many years that is in the middle of the road, not tackle box shooters, but not thread counters either. They encourage period dress of sorts and non-inline MLers and shooting from the bag, but cut new comers and old folks some slack in the dress and accessory dept. Good group.
My concept of *traditional* is middle of the road, as PC as you can afford and *traditional style* MLers.

 

[kmeyer]

Each person should have there own definition that suits them. As long as one enoys doing it there way, who cares? The only time I see it mattering is if you are going to a rendevous with rules one must meet. I personally usually wear Mossy Oak camo with camo backpack and a flintlock, shooting shot or a patched roundball. I'm not overly pc, but am shopping right now for a good possibles bag.

 

[Runner]

Traditional means none of the above. Traditional means that a percentage of the population possessed and used something in a given place and time, and that there is a tradition of use established for that item. Nothing more and nothing less. Thread counting, gun snobbery, and perfection seeking do not have anything to do with the definition of traditional. Traditional is the supposed goal of all three groups tho. Now, are you asking what is the correct way to seek traditonal? That is a single question with a boat load of answers. Most folks will point to the gun first if you talk to us guys. If you ask the women, you might get an answer that would make you pause.

Yesterday I loaded up my 12 guage. I slipped off into the woods for about three hours hunting. I did not wear any special clothes. I did take a gun that is a muzzleloader and shoots a load I worked up. I did depend on my skills to find and get close to game. That is traditional. Now, if you want to do the same in a hunters shirt and leggins, go for it. I don't have leggins yet and my hunters shirt is light deer brown! I am not going in the woods around here wearing it! There be hostiles out there that shoot at that specific color. Once I have a kit that is appropriate for such hunts, I will likely use it. Hopefully tommorrow I will hunt doves at a sunflower patch on managed ground with the muzzleloader. A period outfit would not be appropriate. I will still be doing something that is traditional and correct to my way of thinking. Much is in the heart and the intent, not in the way you are dressed, in my opinion.

 

[vautrain]

I apologize in advance for the following non-answer to your interesting question.

Since I've only been into muzzleloading for a few weeks, I won't offer an opinion directly on your question, but I will tell you what attracted me to muzzleloading. It's a combination of several things, really.

First, I love shooting. I haven't really done any shooting in a long time (save for last weekend) but when I was young, I did a lot of shooting.

I also have an interest in history, and, as shooting relates to the history of our country, and history in general, muzzleloading is a big part of that, even though I'm not planning on participating in any dress events/reenactments.

It's also a way to be more involved in the shooting process. Just about anybody can load and shoot a .357 magnum or a 9mm autoloader, with very little thought going into it, issues of safety and accuracy aside. Muzzleloading takes knowledge, thought, and practice.

For all the reasons above, when I recently decided to get back into shooting, muzzleloading was an easy choice.

 

[bnail]

I'm a traditional revisionist. :front:

 

[Stumpkiller]

A tradition is something passed down over time from one person or group to another. Like having a tree at Christmas or a jack-o-lantern at Halloween.

It don't matter if the pumpkin was carved with plastic tools and is illuminated with LEDs, or the tree is aluminum with blue mylar needles, it's still a tradition.

Don't confuse it with "period correct". Lots of folks still use candles in their pumpkins, but few use candles on their trees. It is tradition to have a tree, but if you ask someone what a "traditional" tree is they will tell you a cut, live tree.

"Traditional" has come to be recognized as "the way it used to be done" in common parlance.

You can call a T/C Hawken a "traditionally styled" muzzleloader even though the innards are modern.

When I started muzzleloading the "traditional" garb was bib-overalls, a flannel shirt, a Fedora or Borsalino hat and a long barreled muzzleloader with a simple pouch and horn. It was "traditional" to wear a coon or skunkskin hat and leathers if you had a plains style rifle. :crackup:

How you shot it was more important than how you presented it.

I miss those days a lot.

 

[hobbles]

I'll be darned,, I knew I found a home here,,,

 

[donk]

I am kind of with you. I try to be as PC as I can be when I hunt or shoot. Although I don't want to get carried away to the point where it takes the fun out of it. I do a few full primitive rendezvous with the thread counters like you discribed but I feel alot more at home at a little loser event. For one thing if you don't show a little bit of leaniency for dress and other accourtments, how are you going to get more people interested in the sport and with out new people getting into it where will the our hobby be 20 years from now.

Don't get me wrong I do enjoy full primitive rendezvous but let's face it, what we call a rendezvous today, even in it's strictest since, is a pretty loose interpretation of what a real rendezvous was like. I, like most of us, are in this to have some fun and to spend time with my family. What fun is it if you are always worried about weather my lantern or some other accortment is PC or not. I just want to have a good time and hopefully teach my kids a little history in the process. :m2c:

 

[Claude Mathis]

Here's a previous thread that may offer some additional opinions.

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB4&Number=69536

 

[roundball]

Whats your definition of *traditional* muzzleloading?
Everybody seems to draw their own lines as to where the cut off is. I know a group of shooters at the range I go to that call themselves traditional and they all shoot traditional MLers, i.e., sidelock, muleys, or underhammers. No in-lines. They show up for their shoots wearing a cowboy hat and and a china made knife with fake antler grips and shoot from a tackle box.
There is a second group I know that are thread counting PC Nazi's that condemn any firearm costing less then $600 that is not custom made, and only PC accouterments and dress, if you spend more on a college education then your outfit you're out. They condemn T/C because they have a coil spring inside that you can't see, but they have a cooler in the back of their lodge under a wool blanket.
Then there is a club I used to belong to for many years that is in the middle of the road, not tackle box shooters, but not thread counters either. They encourage period dress of sorts and non-inline MLers and shooting from the bag, but cut new comers and old folks some slack in the dress and accessory dept. Good group.
My concept of *traditional* is middle of the road, as PC as you can afford and *traditional style* MLers.

I think the first decision block is high level one...you are either headed down the "Modern Inline Technology" path, or the "Traditional Technology" path...if the the latter, then you're in the "Traditional" category. Then, within that "Traditional" category there are greater and greater degrees of "Traditional" all the way to "purist".

From the somewhat traditional looking rifles like the TC Hawkens I use, while wearing thinsulate hunting clothes and goretex raingear...all the way to home made/handmade everything so they precisely match documented evidence of articles from a particular period...it's all traditional in that sense.

The way I see it,[url] MuzzleloadingForum.com[/url] members all fall into the Traditional category...just at different places along that path, dictated by interest, time, money, knowledge, resources, etc.

My plans are to take some squirrels and deer again this year with TC Hawken Flintlocks, black english flints, Goex, patched balls, etc...and when I do I'll be completely satisfied that I took them in a "Traditional muzzleloading manner"...not a "Modern" manner...

 

[bnail]

I think the first decision block is high level one...you are either headed down the "Modern Inline Technology" path, or the "Traditional Technology" path...if the the latter, then you're in the "Traditional" category. Then, within that "Traditional" category there are greater and greater degrees of "Traditional" all the way to "purist".

Ah, but what if you've shot in-lines since they came out, wouldn't you then be a traditional in-liner? :hmm:

 

[roundball]

I think the first decision block is high level one...you are either headed down the "Modern Inline Technology" path, or the "Traditional Technology" path...if the the latter, then you're in the "Traditional" category. Then, within that "Traditional" category there are greater and greater degrees of "Traditional" all the way to "purist".

Ah, but what if you've shot in-lines since they came out, wouldn't you then be a traditional in-liner? :hmm:

No...the point of the whole discussion is in the context / reference of the "traditional American muzzleloading era"...1700-1800's...not modern inline technology that came into use in the late 1980's
:front:

 

[bnail]

No...the point of the whole discussion is in the context / reference of the "traditional American muzzleloading era"...1700-1800's...not modern inline technology that came into use in the late 1980's

you just answered my point. the original post asked "what is 'traditional' muzzleloading." The use of the word "traditional" is a very contextual thing, as you pointed out; consequently, there will never be one concrete definition and I would suspect anyone who attempted to give me one.
here's what webster says about tradition

1 : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom)
2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3 : cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4 : characteristic manner, method, or style

you must set the paramiters before you start using the T-word.

 

[roundball]

No...the point of the whole discussion is in the context / reference of the "traditional American muzzleloading era"...1700-1800's...not modern inline technology that came into use in the late 1980's

you just answered my point. the original post asked "what is 'traditional' muzzleloading." The use of the word "traditional" is a very contextual thing, as you pointed out; consequently, there will never be one concrete definition and I would suspect anyone who attempted to give me one.
here's what webster says about tradition

1 : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom)
2 : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction
3 : cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions
4 : characteristic manner, method, or style

you must set the paramiters before you start using the T-word.

I agree with what you're saying in a philosophical sense...however, not in this instance...this is after all, a muzzleloading website exclusively dedicated to traditional muzzleloading with it's roots in long ago timeframes...and nothing about it's discussion or operation is confused with any modern plastic, stainless, synthetic everything else kind of rifles that happen to load from the front, that came about in the past 15 years...so IMO, I think the parameters of any "traditional vs. non-traditional" discussions on this Forum are well established, and that they reference a long ago era, not the recent few years influx what are called modern inlines.
eace:

 

[thomas]

YOU all know what it means, so stop spitting hairs, unless your an a$$!

Thomas

 

[bnail]

:applause:
I agree completely Roundball, I'm about as traditionally oriented as they come :thumbsup:. I just couldn't resist "splitting hairs"!::

 

[Stumpkiller]

wouldn't you then be a traditional in-liner?

Not until you've infected. . . er, I mean passed that practice along.

The "Traditional In-liner" is the guy who sets his beer down to shoot instead of using the Camel-back pack for hands-free consumption.

 

[oomcurt]

I'm just taking this post on at the end, rather than try to place it elsewhere... That said I wonder if "Traditional" really is the word to use. I mean, ever notice that every once in a while something needs a term to describe it and try as one might..there is no word that does the job. Ok..enough of that... I believe that each of us that values "traditional" has set concepts of just what that is and how it applies to them. For me...and maybe I am just an incurable romantic...it goes far beyond just the gun and equipment. Trying to describe it is well...difficult. I think each of us on this forum has a sort of environment in which they can experience what they are wishing for. For example, would I want to participate in a outing where everything is formalized to the nth degree? Hell no. Neither would I wish to participate in one where there were no "guidelines". What I would participate in would be a true wilderness type experience...nothing modern at all. Now..this does not mean that the gear has to be PC...nope..what has to be pc is the life style as it were. I would not want anything there that relates to the present time..no cell phones, no flashlights, no coolers, no inlines...nada. For meat...it is on the hoof..or at least it was this morning. Come to think about it..it would be dang interesting...make this a month long thing..and see how many of the group would not want to come home and how many couldn't wait to come home....hmm.

 

[gordy]

As was said by roundball and others here,there are many degrees of Traditional.There were hours and hours of opinions offered and discussed in trying to define Traditional in forming the TMA.Most agreed that the weapons should be of a style and action used commonly before the in-line craze.If I were to jouin a living history group I would expect to adhere to rigid documented standards.But to me that is not my desire or goal.Like others here I try to do my trekking and hunting in a Traditional maner useing objects that wo0uld have been used whe muzzleloading weapons were the rule rather than the exception.I love building my own horns,pouches,knives,ball blocks,powder measures(chargers),shot pouches,patches Etc.The carveing or scrimshaw may not be documented but I try to use materials that were common in the muzzleloading era.Overall I'd have to say that Traditional is a feeling and mind set that may well differ in each of us.But We all enjoy some relationship with History and Black Powder Firearms and equipment(excludeing in-lines.)I believe it to be a constant learning process and way of life. :front:

 

[thomas]

:crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

Thomas