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Determining Cast off
- Thread starter Titus
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I dunno but 3/16" puts my eye right down the center of the sights. :thumbsup:
ohio ramrod
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What you need is a "try stock".You could make a quick substitute by taking a rifle removing the but plate and replacing it with a sloted piece of wood that you could "offset" until you reached your desired cast off.
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Bubba45 said:
Christ, you can fit two of me into one of you. :shocked2: :wink:
Swampy said:
I am nowhere near Bubba45's size. :shocked2: I pull the scale only at 190lbs and stands 6'2" in my socks. I do know that my length of pull is a smidgen over 14" and I will duplicate mt Lyman GPH's drop as its perfect for my neck.
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A 1/4" is sufficient for most.
The amount of castoff depends on a person's "build" and the style of rifle. Some very skinny butted rifles don't need any and the early styles w/ thick butts can have more to a lot. I now only build spec guns in the early Lancaster and Bucks County styles and they have 1/8" -3/16" castoff which evidently fits many people......Fred
It is a Total guessing game unless you have a "try stock" or can shoulder some with dif cast-off's to see what fits you the best.
Way to many things to factor to make a one-size-fits-all. Dif heights, weights, builds, arm lengths, broad shoulder, narrow shoulders, neck lengths, spacing between eyes, just so may things & then you get to how you want your cheek on the rifle, some want up close to the wrist, some want back from it, some hole them snug, some loose.......
Basically you should be able to stand with your feet shoulder width, look straight ahead, close your eyes, shoulder the rifle or shotgun, turning Left (if right handed) at the hips & upper body as if to shoot left, open your eyes & if the Rifle or Shotgun Fits you , at this point you will be looking right down the sights......... no adjustment of your head or the gun.
That being said, IMHO a rifle fit is not a critical as a shotgun fit, as most will not snap shoot a rifle like they will a shotgun for upland game & etc. So on a rifle you normally will have a little time for some adjustment, however, it is nice if that adjustment is minor, if at all.
I think most people hunt all their life with ill-fitting guns, simply because they don't know any better. They buy by Brand or Looks, or Price. IMHO, none should be a factor when finding a rifle or shotgun that fits. The best way to find a shotgun to put is to put them gunsock, over 8-10 dif brands, out on a table for a guy to try. That way his eyes cannot deter what he is Feeling.
:wink:
Way to many things to factor to make a one-size-fits-all. Dif heights, weights, builds, arm lengths, broad shoulder, narrow shoulders, neck lengths, spacing between eyes, just so may things & then you get to how you want your cheek on the rifle, some want up close to the wrist, some want back from it, some hole them snug, some loose.......
Basically you should be able to stand with your feet shoulder width, look straight ahead, close your eyes, shoulder the rifle or shotgun, turning Left (if right handed) at the hips & upper body as if to shoot left, open your eyes & if the Rifle or Shotgun Fits you , at this point you will be looking right down the sights......... no adjustment of your head or the gun.
That being said, IMHO a rifle fit is not a critical as a shotgun fit, as most will not snap shoot a rifle like they will a shotgun for upland game & etc. So on a rifle you normally will have a little time for some adjustment, however, it is nice if that adjustment is minor, if at all.
I think most people hunt all their life with ill-fitting guns, simply because they don't know any better. They buy by Brand or Looks, or Price. IMHO, none should be a factor when finding a rifle or shotgun that fits. The best way to find a shotgun to put is to put them gunsock, over 8-10 dif brands, out on a table for a guy to try. That way his eyes cannot deter what he is Feeling.
:wink:
Capt. Jas.
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Birddog6 said:
True. Comb width, size of cheek piece, body style, center of eye location, shoulder design........on and on. I agree with Wick that 1/4" does get many in the right neighborhood on most early rifles.
The shotgun pros use a try-stock regularly for fitting, but the resulting cast-off is totally dependent on the thickness of the try-stock where you place your face. If the try-stock is thinner at the comb (Common if you use a shotgun try-stock because normally they do not have a cheek-piece), you will not get enough cast-off for a rifle with a cheek-piece.
paulvallandigham
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Normally, a shooter cannot determine his own Cast Off. Someone else has to look down the barrel of YOUR EMPTY GUN while you mount it normally to your face.
I found it works best if you let the shooter mount the gun to his face, a couple of times, then ask him to do it with his eyes closed. I ask the shooter to hold that position, without opening his eyes, and then walk forward, on the other side of the gun to use a ruler to give me an idea how far off the center of the barrel his pupil is located when he opens his eye. I take a measurement 3-5 times and average the distances, to compensate for my own errors, if any in taking the measurement. A lot depends on the shape of the shooter's face, and how long his neck is, as it affects where on the comb he places his cheek.
A Try Stock would be the preferred way to measure the cast off- but they are hugely expensive, to make- as I have never found a source for them in order to buy one. When you do find a Try-stock, they are almost exclusively made for break open style shotguns, rather than single shots, semi-autos, or pumps shotguns, or even lever action guns. With a try stock that fits the action, you can take the shooter out to a practice field and have him shoot patterns, or shoot a thrown clay targets to see how the new dimensions feel, and watch how he actually mounts the gun to his face when shooting. Its at the patterning boards that the final adjustments in length of Cast Off, LOP, and drop at comb, or at heel are made with the Try-stock. [A barrel- chested shooter will need more Pitch to his stock, than someone who is tall and thin.] Then those dimensions are transferred to a stock blank and the stock is made for the customer.
You don't see many rifle stocks made with Cast Off( or Cast On for Lefties).
I think most smoothbore shooters would shoot a BP shotgun of any style better if the stock fitted them better. So, if you can find someone with a Try-stock to measure you cast off, using a cartridge, break-open shotgun, go ahead and have them take your measurements. They will be the same with most styles of MLing shotguns. Once you know your amount of Cast off, or cast on, you can make any rifle stock with those same dimensions, and they should fit you like a glove, PROVIDED they are fitted with the flatter, shotgun style buttplates, rather than the half-moon shaped butt plated found on some Mountain rifles. THE HALF MOON BUTT PLATES ARE DESIGNED TO HAVE THE GUN SHOT OFF THE BICEP, NOT YOUR SHOULDER. :hatsoff:
I found it works best if you let the shooter mount the gun to his face, a couple of times, then ask him to do it with his eyes closed. I ask the shooter to hold that position, without opening his eyes, and then walk forward, on the other side of the gun to use a ruler to give me an idea how far off the center of the barrel his pupil is located when he opens his eye. I take a measurement 3-5 times and average the distances, to compensate for my own errors, if any in taking the measurement. A lot depends on the shape of the shooter's face, and how long his neck is, as it affects where on the comb he places his cheek.
A Try Stock would be the preferred way to measure the cast off- but they are hugely expensive, to make- as I have never found a source for them in order to buy one. When you do find a Try-stock, they are almost exclusively made for break open style shotguns, rather than single shots, semi-autos, or pumps shotguns, or even lever action guns. With a try stock that fits the action, you can take the shooter out to a practice field and have him shoot patterns, or shoot a thrown clay targets to see how the new dimensions feel, and watch how he actually mounts the gun to his face when shooting. Its at the patterning boards that the final adjustments in length of Cast Off, LOP, and drop at comb, or at heel are made with the Try-stock. [A barrel- chested shooter will need more Pitch to his stock, than someone who is tall and thin.] Then those dimensions are transferred to a stock blank and the stock is made for the customer.
You don't see many rifle stocks made with Cast Off( or Cast On for Lefties).
I think most smoothbore shooters would shoot a BP shotgun of any style better if the stock fitted them better. So, if you can find someone with a Try-stock to measure you cast off, using a cartridge, break-open shotgun, go ahead and have them take your measurements. They will be the same with most styles of MLing shotguns. Once you know your amount of Cast off, or cast on, you can make any rifle stock with those same dimensions, and they should fit you like a glove, PROVIDED they are fitted with the flatter, shotgun style buttplates, rather than the half-moon shaped butt plated found on some Mountain rifles. THE HALF MOON BUTT PLATES ARE DESIGNED TO HAVE THE GUN SHOT OFF THE BICEP, NOT YOUR SHOULDER. :hatsoff:
Paul is correct in saying a "try stock" is the best way of sizing a stock and determining the amount of cast but, as he says, finding one is next to impossible.
IMO, they are best suited to shotguns where a "point and shoot" method is often used.
Now, IMO, as for a rifle being built by an amateur, with no access to such elaborate equipment just trust me when I say on a rifle, a little goes a long way. Cast is one of the unseen, unnoticed things that makes folks who mount the gun say, "Wow! This thing came right to my eye!!!!!"
When I say unnoticed, it is a fact because the small amount needed for a rifle can only be seen when you hold the gun looking from the top and using the barrel as a guide. Then you notice that from the wrist to the butt plate the stock seems to be moving slightly outward or out to the right.
Using somewhere from 3/16 to 1/4 of an inch shift of the center of the butt plate to the right (for a right handed shooter) is about all that is required. Even if you can only get 1/8 inch of cast out of your stock blank it will work.
For those building a mid to late period longrifle from a pre-carved stock like the Lancaster if you order the "early" style of stock, its 2 1/4 inch wide butt will allow you to shift a "late" or intermediate period butt plate to the right when you attach it. Then by removing the extra wood on the left side of the butt plate you will have created a gun with cast with little effort.
3/16 or 1/4 inch of cast isn't much but it will work magic.
IMO, they are best suited to shotguns where a "point and shoot" method is often used.
Now, IMO, as for a rifle being built by an amateur, with no access to such elaborate equipment just trust me when I say on a rifle, a little goes a long way. Cast is one of the unseen, unnoticed things that makes folks who mount the gun say, "Wow! This thing came right to my eye!!!!!"
When I say unnoticed, it is a fact because the small amount needed for a rifle can only be seen when you hold the gun looking from the top and using the barrel as a guide. Then you notice that from the wrist to the butt plate the stock seems to be moving slightly outward or out to the right.
Using somewhere from 3/16 to 1/4 of an inch shift of the center of the butt plate to the right (for a right handed shooter) is about all that is required. Even if you can only get 1/8 inch of cast out of your stock blank it will work.
For those building a mid to late period longrifle from a pre-carved stock like the Lancaster if you order the "early" style of stock, its 2 1/4 inch wide butt will allow you to shift a "late" or intermediate period butt plate to the right when you attach it. Then by removing the extra wood on the left side of the butt plate you will have created a gun with cast with little effort.
3/16 or 1/4 inch of cast isn't much but it will work magic.
I've found that minimal cast off of 1/8"-3/16" works fine on my spec LRs but have a question. Do any of you tilt the toe back towards center so that when looking underneath little if any cast off is evident? Have been doing this for quite awhile and just like the looks, especially the TG alignment.....Fred
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