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Developing a Load-What would your next step be?

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Splais

40 Cal.
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The pictured target is the 9th five shot target I have shot in a series trying to develop a relatively accurate load for a 45 Cal flintlock with a 42” Grn Mtn barrel. Of the nine targets shot, this is the first one without any fliers and farely nice group. The group is 2.5” outside edge to outside edge at widest point. All targets shot at 50 yds off a bench rest.

I have another tread related to this thread under the title “Can 5mph Wind Do This”. But that thread has run it’s course and now I’m asking a new question.

The first 8 targets were shot with various powder charges, patch thicknesses and proportions of a water/Ballistol dry lube., and .440 swagged RB.

This target #9 was shot using a .445 RB, 60 grs of fffg Goex, a .48mm (compressed) pillow ticking patch, and a 5:1 water/Ballistol dry lube.

Before you comment I would also say that at 50 yds my eyesight probably has about 2” group as it’s maximum capability. I just can’t see any better than that ”“ 65 yr old eyes you know.

Considering what I’ve said here and what you see ”“ two questions:

1) would stay with the .445 RB.

2) After looking at this target what would be your next steps to improve the group, and in what sequence - i.e., change load, patch or lube and in what order.

3. Or, considering what I've said about my eyes - shot the same thing over again and if it's the same, move the sight and forget about getting any better.

DSC00232.jpg
 
I'd try some 1.5x reading glasses and a different target to do as much as I could to eliminate sighting errors. The pointed triangle posted before is a great one.

I'd also consider some means of making sure the gun is level each time you shoot. Small bits of canting can raise cobb with your groups, even when you can see the sights well.
 
Why at 25 yds. I don't understand What would be the point of that? Not questioning you - just asking, learning
 
SPlais said:
Why at 25 yds. I don't understand What would be the point of that? Not questioning you - just asking, learning
Less chance the group size is caused by eyesight issues...easier to see, more precise aiming is possible, etc...you can shoot a single ragged hole at 25yds...at least a very tight cloverleaf
 
As roundball pointed out, less room for human error. Once you have a good accurate load at 25, then you move to longer distances. Thats how I do it anyway.
 
If you are getting "dispersal" or "spread" at 25 yards you tinker and adjust your load/patch/lube combination, one variable at a time, until you eliminate it and shoot one hole or cloverleaf from bench. Only then move to fifty, saves your shoulder, pocketbook, and mind. Good smoke, Ron
 
Swamp Rat said:
As roundball pointed out, less room for human error. Once you have a good accurate load at 25, then you move to longer distances. Thats how I do it anyway.
Just realized he had actually responded to you Swampy...brain-check, my bad :redface:
 
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Your first shot was perfect... Bullseye! I would have stopped shooting then! :rotf: Actually I echo the 25 yard shooting test. My right eye is going south on me rapidly and I have had to recalibrate what distances I can reliably shoot to. I have a few iron sight guns, each sight is different and what I do is start at 25 yards. When I get a load (powder/patch/ball, front/rear sight lineup --the whole combo) that I can make clover leafs with, I move to 50 yards and usually it is close to perfect there too with minimal tweaking. As stated saves time and money, too.

Also, you stated this group was 2.5 inches OUTSIDE measurement and also you said your best you could expect with your eyes is a 2 inch group at 50 yards so I would say by your own admission you are about there and there is not much you can do to improve this combo you have developed. Just practice practice practice. Best to You!!!
 
First off...can the sights be improved? I've got the same problem but my eyes are 76 yrs old. I've found that a front blade .100 thick w/ a silver insert soldered in is about right. The rear sight when looking at the notch in firing position is twice the width of the blade. These are the sights on my squirrel rifle w/ a 42" bbl which is used for "head hunting" squirrels.....Fred
 
Okay: With your vision limitations, first use a diamond shaped "sighter" on the target to give you a finer "point" at which to aim. I use old business cards, turned 45 degrees and stapled to the target.

The corner becomes the "diamond point" and is in the bottom of the Bullseye, for a center hold.

For a 6 o'clock hold, I use colored construction paper, or stick on labels that are rectangular in shape, and approx. 1 " square for the 50 yard targets. AGain, a corner becomes the "diamond point" at the bottom of the bullseye.

In shooting, that "wide" front sight is simply made smaller by focusing on the top edge and the very middle of that top edge. I only need glasses to allow me to see the front sight. The rear sight is something I look through and over. The target can be "fuzzy", because the Difference in the color of the sighter from the Bullseye will give me the aiming point I need to see.

"Aim Small, Miss Small".

If these are two small a "sighter" to be able to see well, use a larger piece of card stock or paper. I know people who take a full sheet of 8 x 11" paper, cross one corner to the other to form a triangle and use that Point for the sighter. And, some do better with the diamond point ABOVE the bullseye, bringing that wide front sight up to the point. The nice thing about a diamond point as a shooting/sighting aid is that it doesn't matter if you can see that very tip of the point: Your eyes are what they are. If you can see any part of that bevel on both sides, you will reduce the windage and elevation variables to the shot.

Now, if you can put a temporary Scope sight on that gun while developing loads that can aid you even further. But, that is for another day.

I would first, then,

1: Change loads. 60 grains in a 45 is a fairly hot load. Works at 100 yds and beyond. Not needed for target work at 50 yards. So, reduce that powder charge first by 5 grains and shoot 55, then 50 grains, doing several targets for an average, and see if there is an improvement. If you see improvement, concentrate your further development by changing the load up and down 2 grains. It doesn't sound like much, and most people will swear that it doesn't make a difference, but the target shooters know better. No, you won't see the difference shooting off-hand, usually, but you are working up the best load you can get for that rifle at 50 yds, now, off a rest. Achieve that, and you can spend the rest of your life learning how to be a better off-hand shooter, like the rest of us. :rotf:

( Oh, you, or someone else shooting that rifle with your loads, should eventually be able to shoot a one hole group off the bench at 50 yds. )Never hesitate to ask another good bench rest shooter to help you test your loads. If they are able to shoot a smaller group than you do with that load in your gun, ask them to watch you load and shoot, and then clean the gun, and tell you what you are doing "wrong" in their eyes. Try it their way, to see if that doesn't solve the problem, and get you shooting smaller groups.

2. Next, ball size: I would be shooting the .440 ball, with a .015 patch. Not a .445. They are usually harder to load, if the bore is truly .450", and you are more likely to distort the ball's shape getting it into the barrel than you will a .440 ball. The difference in ball distortion on accuracy doesn't show at 25 yards, but does begin to show at 50 yds, and really shows out at 100 yds. ( I learned this the hard way with my .45.)

3. I would try a Wax/oil mix lube, like wonderlube. 100% Ballistol has not worked well for most shooters. The oil squeezes out into the powder, and fouls some of it, no matter how small. That in turn can open group size. If I continued with Ballistol, I would try a 1:6 or 1:8 mix of ballistol to water, letting the patch or fabric dry in the sun, before taking them to the range.

This " Dry Lube", a favorite of Dutch Schoultz, works very well in a variety of calibers. Dutch used Water Soluable oil( available from NAPA auto supply stores) instead of Ballistol, but the principle is the same. His method gets the oil into the threads of the fabric, where it does a lot of good, and is consistent, without being excessive. You don't have to worry about fouling your powder using Ballistol his way.

4. Try putting a clean Dry patch down on the powder, before putting your Ballistol patch down the barrel. If the oil IS fouling the powder, the second patch should prevent that for a little while, more than enough on a range to get the load fired.

If you haven't ordered Dutch's system, Do so.
http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

Its the best $15.00 you can spend on helping you develop loads for any MLer.

I just reviewed Dutch's material. For a powder charge, he is recommending 1.5 times caliber size, so you would be shooting 68 grains of powder in your .45. But, he also recommends using FFg powder in the .45.

So, try both recommendations.

Your 42 inch barrel will efficiently burn 77 grains of powder(Davenport formula), and his recommendation takes you close to the 90% level Charles Davenport recommended to target shooters at Friendship. If I were you, I would shoot two five shot groups, one with 68 grains, and the other with 70 grains, and see which produces the smaller group size.

From a review of Dutch's material, I think he would suggest that you find a thicker material. He measures the material as it is Compressed. Then multiply that compressed figure by two(2), since the patch wraps around Both sides of the ball, to find out what the patch thickness adds to the Ball diameter.

You want to reach a combination that is tight, but not so tight you can't smoothly push the PRB down your barrel to the powder. You don't want it so tight that the ball is distorted. As bad as a ball is ballistically, it surely beats a Mushroom! as Dutch says.


Finally, he also says to use only balls that are within 1/2 grain in weight to the heaviest ball used. His targets are rather convincing of this important factor.

Here is his summary of Variables:

Internal: / External/ Personal
Type of powder / Wind / Ability to load
Amount of powder / light / Consistently
Patching thickness/ Humidity/ Ability to aim
Patching lubrication/ consistently
Size of ball/
Weight of ball/
Loading method/

I would add to this," Ability to Consistently Clean your gun between shots", based on other material in his text.

I hope this helps. :hatsoff:

P.S. Your latest target resembles Target #18 in Dutch's material the most.
 
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At this point in time I'm not prepared to even think about dickering around with changing sights.

Nobody has commented on the switch to .445 balls? :hmm: I tried a thicker patch with the .440; but it didn't have near the improvement of going to the .445 ball using the same patch I was using with the .440.

oops, Paul you typed over me - let me read it all...
 
Paul,

Dutch is who got me started moving in the right direction. I’m using his system and DRY lube. The only reason I started posting was that I was feeling guilty about bugging him all the time. I’m working through his system; but come across these special issues now and then. At this point in time it is the only thing I’m going to use (dry lube), varying the lube proportions. PS: he now recommends Ballistol vice the machine oil because of changes in the machine oil formula. Any water soluable oil will d.

I shot groups from 50-70 grs. In 5gr increments. It’s kind of weird, but the best groups were at 60 and 70 grs. If I can get the same results at 60 as at 70, why use the extra powder.

I tried the .440 balls with patching from about .012 all the way to .020 in u.s. sizes (my micrometer measures in mm’s. The best results with the .440 balls was with one that measures out at about .48mm (.o18us). Going to the thicker patch didn’t help. When I used that .445 ball I shot this nice group. While it was ”˜harder’ to load, it wasn’t that hard. I wipe between every shot, with the 445 I wiped twice. All my patch measurements are compressed measurements; and I’m still waiting for my scale to arrive so I can do some weighing just to see what happens.

The first time I tried the .445’s, yes after the second shot, even wiping, it got hard. But then I went to a two wipe system with the first wipe being a water/MOS misted patch and the second wipe being a light spit ”“ seems to have worked well that way.

Had a lot of bad weather and distractions. One of these days soon I'm just going to have to go out there and shoot for a few hours to work it all out.
 
What do the used patches look like???

I found that once I passed 50 I HAD to go to a
6'oclock hold to get good groups, before that I just centered the front sight on the bulls eye...
Now, I put the bulls eye on top of the front sight...
 
I agree the 25 yd shooting but yours looks good, maybe slight adjustment.
have you tryed an over-powder felt? tightened things some in my .50.
 
SPlais said:
Paul,

But then I went to a two wipe system with the first wipe being a water/MOS misted patch and the second wipe being a light spit ”“ seems to have worked well that way.

FWIW, I use a two-patch-clean between shots; first patch reasonably damp with spit, or cleaning solution(using both sides of patch). Then DRY patch (both sides).

Every new target (5 or 6 shots) I run the fouling scraper down and scrape the breech, turn rifle over and rap the buttplate to knock any accumulated crud out, then clean as above.

This keeps bore conditions the same for best accuracy.

For whatever reason, my guns shoot best with wonder-lubed ticking, although I use Ballistol for cleaning and bore preservation.
 
You need to shoot some more 25 yd. shots. It looks like the more you shoot the more to the right your shots.
This is a common error with new shooters and side lock rifles. The first shot mostly OK, follow up shots mostly to the right. The more they shoot the more distracted by the locks action. They tend to lose the front sight by looking right as the trigger is pulled.
Have a seasoned shooter fire your rifle. You may not need to change loads and don't mess with the sights until you are sure. :shake:
 
I think you have gotten allot of good advice. I will add one more. Sun, really effects me. If there is sun on the sights, I find they almost will work like a sundial for me and my eyes will see the target differently as the sun moves across the sky. So if you can shoot with the gun in the shade, it will take another variable out of the mix. Good Luck!
 
I have a .45 cal x 42" GM barrel on my custom built longrifle. It likes 45 gr Goex 3f and .018 pillow ticking with spit for lube. It will shoot 3-shot cloverleaf groups at 25 yds offhand, with me doing the shooting. Why do you feel you need to use such a heavy powder charge? 65 gr is close to what I use in my .54 cal for hunting. Seems to me you might be making too many changes at the same time to effectively work up an accurate load. Start with a powder/patch/lube/ball combo and change only the powder charge, then go back and change the patch, then the lube, then the ball. You should be able to come up with something that is more than satisfactoy in a couple hours at the range. Clean/wipe as you wish, just make sure you do it the same between shots or at the same intervals.

Oh, yeah, don't worry too much about moving the sights until you start getting consistent groups, regardless of exactly where on the target they are grouping.
 

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