developing loads

[browndog]

I have a Lyman Deerstalker stainless 54 cal and am new to this game. I have been loading 100gn ffg wano powder by weight putting the cartridge paper down the bore as a wad and ramming a lyman 405gn maxiball on top.At 50 yds it puts 2 rounds within an inch on the bull and throws the rest around the target up to 6 inches away. Today I tried a lubed felt wad over the powder and the 3 round group exceeds 10 inches. The hammer is going to half cock 2 out of the three shots.
Is this a sign of excess pressure?
When hunting the rifle with the old load 2 shots are plenty. Do I need to clean the barrel every second shot? Should I try again with 80 gns ffg and and felt wads and see what happens?
The felt wads were the only change.
Its a long way to get advice in Australia but thanks for your assistance.
Regard Browndog

 

[Zonie]

If I were you I would stop putting paper cartridges down the bore.

There's a chance that fragments of the smoldering paper can be left behind so that's a good way to get an accidental discharge when the next cartridge is loaded.

If you can find one, get a adjustable powder measure that's made for black powder.
If you can't find one, make several powder measures out of pieces of copper or brass tubing.
You can measure out the powder weight and then file the open end down to that height.

As for lubed wads over the powder charge, there are a number of people here that think they are neater than sliced bread.
There are others who have their doubts that the wads serve any purpose other than to make the wad company richer.

Your 100 grain powder load sounds a bit stiff to me.

One of the things folks rapidly learn is that each rifle is different and each one will have one or two powder loads that shoot very accurately and a bunch of powder loads that don't shoot well at all.
The trick is to find the one that shoots most accurately.

Even if your using a heavy powder load to try to get a flat trajectory (that sounds like a oxymoron), it doesn't serve any real purpose if the shots are going all over the place.

Try reducing the powder charge by 10 grains at a time and see what happens to the group size.

It might be that a 70 grain load will put them all into a inch circle. If so, you've found the right load.
Then it's just a matter of finding out what the drop is with that load at more distant ranges.

 

[rodwha]

I see that Lyman's states that 110 grns of 2F is the max charge when using a conical. But I've always heard that if the hammer is thrown back to half cock you've gone too far. You know the saying of better to be safe than sorry.

As for your group size try cleaning between shots or every other shot.

I have a RB .50 cal version of that rifle and found that I often have problems seating a PRB after 5 shots. I clean every third shot now. But I'm not broken in quite yet and haven't even really tried for small groups yet. I've just blown holes in the target.

Have you broken in your barrel yet (~200 shots) or smoothed it out?

 

[AZbpBurner]

OK, so I recently discovered that my supposed 'Deerstalker' is actually a Cabelas Hawken. Nevertheless, 80 gr. Pyrodex RS (2F) gives me extreme accuracy with both a TIGHTLY patched RB, or Lee Improved Minie.

My Minie's with 80 gr. would be no fun to shoot all day at the range, and I can't imagine firing anything with 100 Gr. IMO, for deer, that 100 gr. is overkill.

A buddy of mine hunted with my Gallagher a few years ago. Punched a neat hole thru one shoulderblade & left an exit divot nearly the size of a tennis ball. Deer stumbled for a few yards, then tipped over forward. The Gallagher brass holds full charge at best 40+ Gr. of 3F and does a great job with that same Lee Minie.

Seems to me folks often underestimate the effectiveness of blackpowder & think it needs to propel their lead at near-modern rifle velocities.

 

[rodwha]

I want a rifle that can fire a conical out to 150 yds or more as a RB just gets tossed by the wind too much for me past 75-100 yds. But to shoot past 125 yds with a heavy conical without too much of a rainbow trajectory will require some velocity. I've been interested myself.

But I want something I can shoot 50 rounds at the range without being hammered. But that's me. Some people like to be abused.

 

[George T.]

As they say no pain no gain! A rainbow it will be! a fellow named Newton figured it all out a long time ago. Heavy bullets and heavy charges = ouch! Geo. T.

 

[Zonie]

Sounds to me like you want a modern cartridge gun.

By their very nature black powder muzzleloaders have lower velocities and rainbow trajectories.

Successfully learning how to deal with these conditions gives the shooter great satisfaction.

 

[rodwha]

I see that a 385 grn Hornady Great Plains conical (.148 BC) can be sent with an 80 grn 3F charge at 1460 fps and stay within 5" of 0 out to 150 yds. Not too bad. Not sure what one's shoulder might think 50 shots later, but the trajectory isn't so bad.

 

[rodwha]

I'm not really sure what all you have to hunt there, but it's likely a .54 cal RB is plenty out to 100 yds unless maybe it is quite dangerous.

But I certainly can understand wanting something with a higher BC value if you are wanting to hunt beyond 100 yds.

 

[browndog]

A ball will kill all I shoot but Lyman doesn't recommend balls only conicals. The stainless lyman barrels have shallow grooves groove .55 bore .542 and a 1 in 48 inch twist. Does any one use balls in these rifles?
Regards Browndog

 

[AZbpBurner]

1:48" is an outstanding PRB twist. If you have had success hunting with a roundball, why worry about what Lyman says is supposed to work? Of course Lyman will recommend their particular brand of mold, the #548657 Maxi Ball, which may be what you may already be using.

You could also try the Lee improved Minie, #533-410. I've been casting this particular Minie for nearly 40 years, and it works fine in the 1:48" Investarms barrel. Accuracy is 2nd place to my PRB's, but I haven't spent a lot of time optimizing the best accuracy load for it in the Investarms barrel yet.

 

[nkbj]

My two cents worth...
With that high of a charge you are likely getting lead build up whether you are getting gas cutting or not. Have you recovered a maxi and checked the base for visible signs of erosion? Do you have any metal shinies on the patches when cleaning? If you are getting lead build up then some possible remedies are:
1- Tighter fitting bullet diameter.
2- Better lube.
3- Card wad(s), lube wad(s).
4- Less pressure.
5- Paper patching.

From what you wrote I'm not sure about the cleaning regimen between shots. With bullets you need to clean if you want accuracy.

Hope that got close to the bull (heh heh).

 

[Rifleman1776]

Sounds to me like you want a modern cartridge gun.

Hey! I'm the one who gets criticized with PTs for being brutally honest. :shocked2:
You trying to elbow in on me? :cursing:
:wink: :haha: :v

 

[bigted]

that 48 inch twist is what T?C gives its Hawkins and Renegades in 45 ,., 50 ,., 54 cal and it does very well with patched balls. the conicals do pretty good in that twist as well. the 48 twist is a happy medium for balls and conicals. faster would be just for conicals and slower would be for ball's only...so your 48 twist should do all you want/desire.

as for your hammer going to half cock...it is your rifle telling you something is wrong. either your nipple is enlarged in the tiny hole area or just too much pressure in there. id would start with 60 grains and work up to accuracy with either balls or conicals. you have a nice rifle and at 54 cal it will take anything you point it at ... providing you are the hunter that can and will stalk to within reasonable range. if dangerous game then be with a partner that can and will back you up for safety.

 

[browndog]

the stainless barrel has 4 thousandth of an inch rifling depth any suggestions on patch thickness would be helpful with a .535 or .530 ball. The lubricated felt wad made loading very much easier using the maxi ball. Fired maxis have a good base. Game size deer goats and pig to 150kg.
Regards Browndog

 

[browndog]

my modern cartridge gun is a marlin 45 70 lever. I just like big bullets and rainbow trajectory and dont mind getting close. The addition of the greased felt wad seemed to increase pressure and blow my groups. I have started to work my loads backwards in 10 grain increments and will report if things tighten up.
Regards Browndog

 

[rodwha]

I don't know, but I'd assume a .530" RB and a thinner patch would likely be better since there isn't much groove depth to fill in. Maybe start with a ~0.010" patch.

 

[browndog]

my mold is a lyman 540619 405 gn maxiball. It hits like a hammer and kills very well. It is discontinued now I think. Given what I have been told on this forum I think I should get it to shoot well as to date I have not been cleaning in between 5 shot groups. Loading the last three has been very hard.
Regards Browndog

 

[gearheart]

You should swab more often. It is after all that first shot on a clean barrel that you are going to bet the beer money on when hunting. Not so? You have no critters in OZ that a round ball wont produce a bang/flop on or do you have grizzly bears over there too. 1X48 twist is good for round balls. The Hawken brothers certainly thought so. With the shallow grooves a tighter patch may be in order.
OK you asked about your load so I'll go back to the original question. Hammer blow back is indeed indicative of an excessive load. Because of the mass of your projectile it takes longer to accelerate and the pressure builds up faster and higher. If you have any erosion of the hole in the nipple then more pressure will leak out there. Try changing the nipple and see if that improves things.
The load you are describing will lay a serious beating on you. I'd be black and blue for a week after shooting 10 or so of those loads.
The guys here, myself included,would like to convince you of the virtues of the round ball. If nothing else you will get better mileage out of your lead. 3 of your projectiles will get you 4 round balls and some change left over. :v

 

[browndog]

we get some seriously big pigs. Sambar deer also that get up to 600 pounds. Buffalo up to a ton but I think I would use my 45 70 again on these as they can stuff you up if you dont put them down. In the main feral goats and normal pigs and the odd fallow deer are what is around my place and would easily be handled by a ball. I will have to get a ball mold. .535 or .53 Lyman or Lee are available here any suggestions?
Regards Browndog