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Diagnose My Problem

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Hey guys, here's a 75-yard target I fired with my .54 GP flintlock. Notice that shots 1, 3 & 5 form a group near the bull, and shots 2 & 4 are touching, but several inches below the others.

I'm confident that my loading technique was consistent. All of the shots felt good as far as sight picture and trigger letoff goes. I can't figure out what's going on.

Any ideas???

GP_0023web.jpg
 
YOu are changing the focus of your eye at the last fraction of second from the front sight to the target, causing a slight lift of your head. Notice how the one shot is up and towards your face at 10 o'clock. The other two shots are almost directly above the lower two shot.

You need to do a oral 'Follow-through " Count to five( before moving your head off the stock) as you fire the shot, accept the recoil, and focus on the front sight while it rises and then comes back down on target. This will give your brain something to do after the shot while you concentrate on keeping your cheek to the stock and your eye on the front sight.

It appears that you are using a 6 o'clock hold, NO?

You can call this a " Flinch ", but whether it is or not, the villian here is NOT following Through on the shot, which is the problem for many good shooters, whether shooting MLers, or modern cartridge guns. Shooting Flintlocks is where we see this a lot, even among shooters long experienced with shooting percussion guns. Do the dry fire practice putting a coin on the top flat, and firing the lock. ( Fire 10 shots.)If you can do this out of doors, put priming powder in the pan for a second series of 10 " shots " each. You will find that you soon ignore the flash, and will be able to keep your cheek firmly on the rifle, and your eye focused clearly on the front sight ONLY during follow through. Then, you will see real groups!

Best Wishes. Paul

Buy a copy of Dutch Schoultz' Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System, for $15.00.
http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

He does an excellent job of TEACHING you how to do your own analysis of shots and groups to discover what you are doing wrong that is opening groups. Its the best $15.00 you can spend on your own education.
 
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It would be helpful to know exactly what kind of sights you are using. Your windage is fine with just over an inch dispersion. Your elevation is the problem. If its your sights, it's caused by how fine a bead you draw. Exposing more or less of the front sight causes groups like yours. It's difficult to place a front bead in the center of a bull using hunter sights and results in similar groups as it is easier to hold correct windage than elevation. If patridge sights are used with a center hold, again it's difficult to cut the bull exactly in half. This assumes it's a sighting problem, not variation in pressure, or bedding problems, or a miriad of other variables. In any case, I would expect that once you resove the elevation dispersion you will have a tack driver.
 
Did you have any mirage off the barrel?
Were the patches in good shape after firing?
Have you tried higher powder charges?
Does the ramrod protrude past the muzzle?
Are the screws in the tang tight?
What patch lube are you using?
Finally delete the wad it could be the problem.

Use a damp patch to wipe with if you think its needed. Dry patch probably is not doing much to clean the fouling off the tops of the lands.

Dan
 
Based on your target and information provided (as well as my own "hit or miss" experiences in the past many years) I would have to side heavily with Paul's anallisis. Sights would have little to do with the problem you describe, if your "sight picture" remaines constant. Remember sights are as individual as the shooter using them. The best sight for you is what picture can you see best, one shooters perfect sight can well be a complete nightmare for someone else.

I believe that shooting the target a few more times using Paul's "follow through" steps will tell the tale.

Also making the transition from cap to flint for the first time is a real problem for many shooters. The "dry fire" exercise will also help greatly. One twist I would add to this (I have never tried it with the coin) is to do this just after dusk as the flash will seem much more of a distraction in the failing light, then in full daylight you will hardly notice the flash at all.

Shoot Flint
...............
Toomuch
 
It would be interesting to know how many times you have shot this gun. I assume this is off a bench? Have you shot flintlocks for a few years? If you are somewhat new to flintlocks, are your sights in line after a missfire? Personally, I am not real concerned about how I shoot at 75 yards, just too far for me. If I shot off a bench a lot I would be happy with 3" groups using primitive sights on a flintlock. Might need more information. flinch
 
Could be a follow-thru problem.

Could possibly be the adjustable rear sight on the Great Plains rifle. :hmm: I have 2 GPR's that I had to file quite a bit off of the front blades to raise the point of impact to point of aim and still have decent tension on the rear sight screw. Is yours adjusted way up?

Good luck figgerin' it out.
 
Thanks for all of the input guys. I read everything twice.

Here's a little more info based on some of the questions raised.

This is my first flintlock. I've had a total of seven range sessions with it. The target I posted were shots #131 through 135.

That target was fired from a good solid bench rest position using a 6 o'clock hold (good analysis, Paul) with a Lyman peep rear sight and the factory front blade.

I don't find that the pan flash or the workings of the lock bother me much at all. I have never had a flash in the pan with this gun (knock on wood), but have had a number of misfires with no spark when I go too long without wiping the flint. When I do get a misfire I usually feel pretty good about how steady the sight picture stayed after the hammer slam.

I wear bifocal glasses and don't have a real easy time maintaining front sight focus while trying to place that three-inch dot exactly on top of it each time.

I've done most of my shooting with this gun a 50 yards, and don't have that type of shot dispersion problem at that range. (See target #25 below.)

In one of my earlier range sessions with the peep sight, I caught myself using two different cheek welds in the same shot string - sometimes right at the front of the combe and sometimes three or four inches further back on the stock. Could that cause verticle stringing? It didn't seem to at the time.

Anyway, I'm having a ball playing with this gun. Started the last range session with a new TOW Tom Fuller flint. Fired 40 shots down range with it. Had to use Paul's "knap it on the heel of the frizzen" technique twice. Right now it looks like a stubby little rock, but it's still sparking just fine.

GP_0025web.jpg
 
If your bench resting then your problem could be either your cheek postion as you have suggested (and yes your shots will vary if you move your head) or maybe you are not resting the fore stock on the same place each time.
 
Yes, placing your cheek against two different places on the stock will change the sight picture enough to cause different POI. I think you diagnosed your own problem.

There are lots of things PEOPLE can do to mess up groups, and when someone says they have been shooting percussiong rifles for a number of years, I tend to think(sometimes a wrong assumption) that the shooter must have put in the practice to be interested in shooting MLers that long, so he has fundamentals of hold, and head placement down well. I would not have thought about you putting your head on the stock in different places, unless I was actually watching you shoot.

When I sit down at a bench to shoot a gun for groups, I scuff my feet in the gravel, or dirt, or mark the cement some how so I know my feet are in the same place each time I sit down to take the next shot. I want to be in the same relative position to the gun stock, and have the barrel being held on the front rest the same way for each shot. Foot placement is just as important when shooting from a bench as it is shooting off-hand. I also use my hands to measure the distance from each side of the chair, or bench I sit on from the edge to each of my hips, again to make sure I am seated in the same place each time.

Oh, because guns differ, I have taken to using a technique I learned to use when testing lever action rifles, when I shoot all rifles. I move the forward rest back so that its right up against the front of the lever, or trigger guard, rather than balance the barrel or forestock way out towards the front sight. This causes me to sit up straighter, and I do have to raise the front rest up to allow me to use it this way. However, its better for breathing, seeing, and holding my sight picture without getting cramps in the muscles in my neck. Because most, if not all, of the barrel is forward of the front rest, the shots may hit lower, than when I shoot off-hand, but not so much that I will miss the target. By letting the stock " hang " off the barrel consistently for shot to shot, I am able to test the consistency of my loads, and not worry about fliers caused by irregular pressure put on the barrel and stock during the string of shots.

Be very consistent in how you load that ball down on the powder charge. Let the powder charge down the side of the barrel, by tipping the barrel to one side as you are pouring the powder into the muzzle. You don't want to compress the powder in a flintlock. Load the PRB slowly and stop when you feel the PRB " crunch " the powder. Mark your loading rod, and from that point on, load to the mark. Your goal is to keep the lead ball as round as possible without defects and being deformed by hammering it in the barrel with the rod, or leaning on the ball to seat it, as you may have done when shooting percussion rifles. Percussion rifels shoot the best groups when the powder is compressed, the opposite of the way to load a flinter for accuracy.

This last group you show us indicates that at the time you shot it, you had almost everything going correctly. I don't know how well you shoot a peep sight, the lighting conditions, the size of the peep compared to the front sight post, or bead, etc. There are a host of things that can make a group smaller or larger based on what you do. The kind of lube you use, as well as how much or how little you use makes a difference. The same goes for patch thickness, how you clean between shots, what you use to clean between shots, whether the powder has been sifted or not, what powder you use( brand and grade) etc.
 
Paul has some very good tips for you to follow. You might shoot the rifle from a good solid sand bag rest as opposed to a hard surface. That will cut down on any extra vibrations during the discharge. Also, after you press... not pull the trigger to the rear and fire the weapon, hold the trigger to the rear position until the ball has gone down the tube and struck the target. Remember good form and follow through. And lastly, don't stay on you sights too long. You eye will fatigue and start to wander or do funny things, causing you to maybe feel the need to rush the shot. If your eye becomes fatigued, get off the sight for a couple of seconds. It will only take a few seconds, about eight seconds for your eye to start to wander when it gets tired from looking through the sights. And again, be consistent. It'll work itself out for you if you do everything well. Stick with it. :thumbsup:
 
For what its worth, I have recently found that I shoot better NOT using the set trigger, just use the normal trigger. I THINK it has something to do with being able to feel when the regular trigger will fire, but not the set trigger. :2
 
justmike said:
If your bench resting then your problem could be either your cheek postion as you have suggested (and yes your shots will vary if you move your head) or maybe you are not resting the fore stock on the same place each time.


Peeps are GREAT but I gave them up and went back to open sights due to that reason...solved my problem too. :hmm:
 
The easiest way to train yourself to use the same position on a stock is to put something ( temporary) on the cheekpiece that you can feel with whatever part of your jaw you decide to use for that purpose. Something smooth, or metallic, rather than course( so it doesn't abrade your skin in recoil!) will do the job nicely.

Modern shotgunners have been doing this kind of thing for years, because with any shotgun your position on the stock locates your eye over the barrel and becomes, in effect, your " Rear Sight ".

With the advent of Sporting Clays, and at Friendship, the " Quail Walk" where targets are fast and high over your head, causing the shotgun to be moved up onto the top of the shoulder, and the face forward of its normal position (unless you have a back made of rubber) shotgunners are having to address this issue more and more.

Precision rifle shooters have known the importance of head position on the stock for years.

You will find the same problem shooting an Open Rear Sight, IMHO. You will help your " old eyes" by opening up the notch in the rear sight, to let more daylight come through alongside the front sight. I like there to be as much light on both sides as the sight appears to be wide in the rear sight.

That seems to allow my old eyes to center the post, and focus clearly on the front sight in the widest light conditions. The factory-made, small notch only seems to work for me these days on bright sunny days, at the range, when shooting at paper targets.
 
The problem might be all of the above, but if it were an Army target, and I were training soldiers again, I'd say you are having problmes with breath control. Do you let your chest touch the bench, or not? Firing a string of more than five shots would tell you a lot more.
 

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