Did frontiersmen really carry Neck knives?

Well this topic has been well covered but I'll add my two bits: neck knives among white British/German/etc colonials and early American citizens are probably grossly over-represented by modern reenactors. It is a modern fad--male jewelry. No doubt they existed and whites on the frontier copied many Indian ways. The Indians without doubt invented the neck carry in N. America. The early French habitants /coureur de bois/etc picked up the habit. Remember that early trade knives were not all that huge, heavy or bulky and neck carry was not that cumbersome--the trade knives typically had light wood handles, no bolsters and thin 5-6" blades. A knife can be and has been carried in numerous different ways over the centuries. The mid 18th cent New France militia are described as carrying a neck knife, belt knife and garter knife. No doubt, as Henry said, they also had a clasp knife in their bag or bedroll. Clasp knives were probably more common than neck knives and are under-represented by reenactors. We argue whether or not the French at Ft St Jean Baptiste in LA wore neck knives--and most of us reenactors here do not because of the controversy. It was definitely more common in the northern areas, but many Canadians made it down here and stayed. Early drawings of local Indians show knives worn at the belt, not neck.

 

[faw3]

Im sure this is going to be way out from whats talked about here but are you adding in patch knifes? I made me a cheap one back in mid 70s cause it was easy with the length of my rifle to just reach to mine (about 3" for all of it) to cut the patch. Or would that be someother kind of knife? Just wondering. Fred :hatsoff:

 

Patch knives are a whole other topic...probably late comers, say mid-late 19th cent., possibly later, when target shooters kept MLing alive and cut at the muzzle. Some old bags (19th cent) have knives attached, but they may not be "patch knives" per se--many are small-medium hunting knives. In the 18th cent, often (usually?) patches were precut, even using scissors, which by the way are common on trade lists. Using precut patches its faster to reload.

 

Fred, that brings up another controversy. Those who think/beleive NDNZ were super spiritual think the NDNZ used the scalper for ONLY scalping. Scalpers were simply European butcher knives and were used to cut patches, meat, skin hides off of critters, clean under you toenails, etc. The scalper was simply a trade knife, {read butcher knife} and came in various sizes and shapes.

 

[crockett]

For what is it worth- don't some of the Laps in Scandinavia use neck sheaths? The idea is that they are more accessible in the Winter when heavy clothes are worn. If you are constantly using a knife for trapping, etc it gets to be a bother to twist around and put the knife in a belt sheath. Maybe the Indians used neck sheaths for the same reason- just a thought.
My take is that the French used them in North America. I don't recall reading about any British/American using them.

 

[faw3]

Don I can think of a subsection to your knife post, that being would all tribes do the same with just one knife, as in 1 for scalaping 1 for throwing at white guys that forgot to bring a extra gun to a 2 NDN fight :rotf: ( Ive seen a kid here playing with a old style bow and arrows and he's like on full auto :rotf: just zip,zip,zip,zip..) I just came up with this thing that if you had been like I was stuck in a wheelchair for years you come up with ways to get around things or to make it simple, as the little 3" knife to cut patches, boogers, my kid found it great to use fishing, lots easyer than reaching into his pocket when he has one fish on the line. What Im getting at so poorly is I wonder if liveing back then with a whole different lifestyle just what little things got used that we dont know about because it was so common and small no one would bother to write about it for us later on? :hmm: ( I really need a guy scratching his head here) Fred :hatsoff: :shake: my thoughts for today :rotf:

 

[2172]

Crokett, I seem to recall that the highland Scots during the times before fancy kilts, wore the sgian dhu in a sheath suspended by a leather thong that went around the neck on one side and then the body to suspend the knife/sheath under the arm...this was in the days that the upper body was naked or wrapped in a plaid, and there were no stockings to tuck the dagger into...Hank

 

[Claude Mathis]

... in a sheath suspended by a leather thong that went around the neck on one side and then the body to suspend the knife/sheath under the arm...

I've often wondered if this isn't what early written accounts are describing when they say, "around the neck" and it's been misinterpreted to mean, "worn like a necklace".

After all, they were only trying to distinguish that it wasn't "worn at the waist".

(another 2 cents)

 

[Henry]

BTW , Neck sheaths become obselete after
1760 for the Canadiens .

One should remember that the F&I war militia
clothes consist of a breech cloth ( also obselete
after 1760 ) and a wool cloth belt over the shirt . No leather belt , exept for the soldiers who
only have regulation gear on it ( sword/tomahawk and bayonet ,no knife )

The wool cloth belt will eventually hold
at one time or another : tomahawk , knife , bullet bag, tobacco bag , money pouch and in some rare occasion a pistol .

Obviously , everything can not be carried at the same time ! :hmm:

At the village , the " habitant " would wear breeches , and carry a clasp knife in his pocket
a neck knife would be as strange as wearing
duck hunting camo clothes at the office today .
( well , I saw school kids recently.... )

At events , most of us carry a unsharpened
butcher knife in a sheat in the belt , for demonstration and get rid of it at camp .

At camp the group need only one sharpened long knife for cooking , militia men use a small neck knife and soldiers use a clasp knife ( since they have pockets in their coat ) for eating . Even there , as the main menu is always soup, not much use for it .

Once in a while , an officer dealing with Indian allies will have some Indian object as
a sign of respect .

Some Indian nations never bring the scalping knife inside their village , it is left somewhere
outside .

 

How about nonmilitary Henry? Not everyone in New France was in a line unit!

Are you guys afraid you will cut yourselves or something? One sharp knife in camp all that is needed? Leaving scalpers outside the village? No knives present due to the Bayonet? (yea, the woods runners are going to give up their knives!)

Breechcloths obsolete in 1760? Did they pass a law or something? Did the peace treaty strip them of their clothes?

:youcrazy:

All this is just another good reason not to be French.

 

[LRB]

Ghost, you are just incorrigible aren't cha! :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: :grin:

 

I don't know about when they stopped wearing breechcloths, but alot of things changed for the French habitants by 1763, when their world turned upside down. They lost their Canadian territory to the British and their Louisiana (Miss Valley) country went to Spain. All of a sudden they were ruled by two new masters--one not so friendly in the recent past and even worse: protestant! Some Canadians and Louisianans adapted, some were displaced, some lost their livlihoods or their lands. Things were probably better in Louisiana for the French habitants, as the Spanish retained alot of the social/economic structure they had set up, but problems existed. We read stories of French coureur de bois joining the Indians in war against the British, but also some joined the British in the fur trade. I suspect the ones that stayed in the woods with the Indians retained their breechcloths for some time after 1760.

 

[Henry]

" How about nonmilitary Henry? Not everyone in New France was in a line unit! "

Actually ... yes , everyone WAS expected
to serve in the Parish Militia , from 16 to 60 years old ( 6 years to go for me ) like modern day
Israël ,Switzerland or Finland . Younger guys
fought along the Marines and the Indians , the older ones merely carried the goods from one fort to another by boats or canoe or worked as craftmen
building forts , boats etc.
Everybody was expected to bring his own gun .

All blades are supposed to stay in the sheath , this in a New York State Park and Parc Canada regulation , those young guys who are doing the hand to hand combat and scalping demo use really blunt edges , but still made of steel .
I am to old for that . :nono:

With a wool cloth belt , the belt knife is much
more inconveniant than the neck knife .
My belt knives are 14 " long , much longer than any modern belt knife I ever used . It really is a weapon . In camp there is nobody to kill and the park/Parc regulation forbids to cut tree branches . The US custom already managed that we could not bring meat from Canada :bull:

( Some pork and horse meat is allowed , under
strick conditions )

Coureur des bois did not scalp their customers :rotf:

Those Indians who did , left the scalping knives
out of the village for the same reason they never touched the scalps with bare hands . Not to bring evil spirits on them . Obviously other nation
like the Abénaki , did not care much about those spirits :blah: and décorated their houses with scalps , one of the very few thing in " North West Passage " that is well documented :v


Breech cloth .... again... I am quite proud that
it is my unit , la Milice de Chambly ( Société de reconstitution historique du Québec ) who brought
that on the the enactment sites . It was a bit weird at first , but well documented . ( I have a nice picture , on the cover of a 1977 copy of Black Powder Illustrated , of a gentleman with breech cloth OVER his breeches :rotf: he also have eyeglasses and a beard for good mesure .)

Breech cloth is an Indian custom , you already knew that , the British took years ( centuries ?) to adopt it .
In Canada it was common for milice and for hunting , even for field work in summer since the
XVII th cent. The clergy was always against it .
There are numérous letters from the bishop to the parish priest to try all they could to stop
those " immoral " practices ( including the habit of women to wear their shirt only , no bodice or skirt , in the fields or at the farm )

After the conquest , the British authorities were so happy to help the french clergy in their work ,forbidding men to wear " small war clothes "
( small war ... in spanish : guérilla )
and carry firearm to hunt on sunday ... or any other day for that matter .
For those in the fur trade , they stayed free for a while , until the Scots came....

 

Ghost, you are just incorrigible aren't cha! :nono: :nono: :nono: :nono: :grin:

You know it!!

When we get the fantacy of a reenactment group mixed up with the real world and start mixing "park rules" with history we have come to a jumping off place!

Perhaps we need to take the "park equipment" to the woods and see what really worked. The French Marine was usually not strolling down main street on a paved walkway. He was a man in the woods part of the time and forced labor the rest, just like all militia. My bet is that he had one of the millions of St Entine folders that were shipped to the colonies in his pocket.

Everyone in every colony of every nationality was expected to serve in the militia, but many of them did not. There were numerous excemptions, even among the French. Courriers were often spoken of seperately from the uniformed French,And courriers normally did not scalp their "customers" but they led war parties that did their share of scalping.

 

[Charles/NM]

Is there a web site that shows clasp or Laguiole knives from the F&I War period? My ex-wife has a very old Laguiole style knife that has scales that apprear to be Rhino horn. I'd like to see what time period it might be from and maybe make some like it.

 

[Henry]

Informations about french clasp knifes from
the F&I war period is here [url] http://www.lanouvelle-france.com/[/url]

Informations about Laguiole , wich opened factory in 1829 , http://www.laguiole.tm.fr:16080/index.php?fonction=histoire&langue=en

 

[Henry]

When we get the fantacy of a reenactment group mixed up with the real world and start mixing "park rules" with history we have come to a jumping off place!... "

Ghost , I already noticed that you have a pretty good opinion of yourself , just let me bring to your attention that I may not be as stupid as you seem to think I am .
( Or maybe I am , in wich case it would be very
polite of you not to remind me , as my wife already does )
Just read the previous posts , the question was
about the neck knifes being inconveniant , I merely stated that a 6 " neck knife was less
trouble than a 14 " belt knife , on a wool cloth belt ,and stating the place and time of said experimentation . Not mixing XVIII th cent life with State Park reglementation .

Je reste cependant votre humble
et dévoué serviteur ,
Henry

"...the French. Courriers... "
I looks like you mix up the words
"courrier " and " coureur "