Discriminating General Doglock Musket?

[Rebel]

"The reproduction we offer here has a 42 inch .75 calibre barrel is made of tempered seamless high carbon steel (type:BS970 no.080M40) with a threaded breech plug. The lock is made with strong durable springs and has a case-hardened frizzen (hammer) that throws good sparks (our new process of cyanide hardening has made this even more durable). This is a true dog lock and the tumbler is notched only at the full cock. The dog catch provides the half cock. However some had both, and a skilled owner with a file can add a second notch if he/she so wishes. This musket possesses a wooden rammer. We use a cyanide case-hardening factory process that makes sparking both more reliable and longer lasting. Presently no other musket provider uses this technique. This dog lock has brass furniture and the serpent shaped lock plate is particularly eye catching."

I am thinking about getting one of these or else a 3rd model Bess.Both are .75 cal. I have a few questions. It says that there is no half cock notch in the tumbler. It also says that a half cock notch can be filed in. If this is done, wouldn't the hammer hang up in the notch if there was no fly? If so, how would you go about adding a fly? Also the frizzen is unbridled. How strong is this? Is it going to have a tendency to break?

As for the 3rd model Bess. Do any of you have one of the India Bess's? If so what are your thoughts on it compared to the Doglock Musket? I know there are threads here about the India Muskets. I would just like some input from someone that has one as to what they think about it. Reliability, accuracy, ignition speed, handling? Any info would be appreciated.

Was also checking out the Doglock Fowler that Middlesex Village offers. It is basically the same with a different buttstock design and a 51" barrel as compared to the 42" of the other one, and is .69 cal.. So, anyone have any thoughts on these?
:thanks:

 

[musketman]

We use a cyanide case-hardening factory process that makes sparking both more reliable and longer lasting.

Now I'm not one to go to extremes , but isn't cyanide a poisonous gas?

Exposure to high levels of cyanide harms the brain and heart, and may cause coma and death. Exposure to lower levels may result in breathing difficulties, heart pains, vomiting, blood changes, headaches, and enlargement of the thyroid gland.

"IF" there are still traces of cyanide embedded in the frizzen, every time the flint hits the frizzen, you will release the molecules into the air...

Now, I'm no alarmist :crackup:, but when you pull that trigger, you can smell the smoke from the pan, the place where the cyanide case-hardened frizzen resides, so you will be breathing in trace amounts of cyanide...

 

[Rebel]

Ok, but other than a little poisonous gas, how do you feel about them. :: I really don't think that there could be any danger from the lock or there would have been some feedback on them by now.

 

[musketman]

It says that there is no half cock notch in the tumbler. It also says that a half cock notch can be filed in. If this is done, wouldn't the hammer hang up in the notch if there was no fly?

My bess has no fly and the sear doesn't hit the half notch at it whizzes down it's preset path...

When I pull the trigger, the trigger lifts the sear's arm, disengaging it from the full cock notch, allowing the musket to fire...

As long as the trigger is held in the pulled position, the sear will be pushed out of the way of the tumbler, once the trigger is let go, the sear spring applies pressure and the sear is held against the tumbler awaiting to engage a notch...

To verify this, take an unloaded musket with no "set triggers" and lower the hammer to full fire, keeping the trigger pulled, pull the hammer to full cock and then lower it back down, nothing engaged because the sear is held away from the tumbler via the trigger's arm...

All this takes place in milliseconds in real time, so I doubt that you could take your finger off the trigger fast enough to allow the sear to engage the half cock on the tumbler as it runs it's course...

:imo: Now, set triggers, that's a different story, then you'll need a fly... :imo:

 

[Rebel]

Thanks MM. So, if it were you, would you go with one of the Doglocks or the Bess. Now i know you are a Bess fan, but what are your thoughts on the Doglocks. Also, the 3rd Model Bess has a 39" barrel. How do you think it would handle. I have never handled a Bess, but really did like the way my Tradegun handled. I know the Bess weighs more than the Tradegun did by about 2/12-3 lbs. Do you use your Bess for any wingshooting? If so, how does it do?

 

[musketman]

Yes, I would get the dog lock bess if I was in the market for another one, I would NOT cut a half notch in it (lacking skill on my part as my reason)...

A 39 inch barrel will swing faster than the 42 incher, that's for sure, a plus for flying game...

It will "appear" to have faster barrel time too, less barrel to travail before the shot is free to scatter...

In reality, the velocity will be slightly less due to the 3 inch less of barrel, but not enough to notice without proper measuring equipment...

 

[Rebel]

I had 2 Tradeguns in .20 ga. that i liked. Wish i had kept the Track Of The Wolf one. They were nice and light, and swung well on birds. I am looking at a couple of North Star West Tradeguns that i just found on one of the auctions. I am trying to find Someone who wants to take a nice Navy Arms double barrel .12ga as part trade on one. But i may go with one of the Bess's if i can't find a Tradegun. How much does your Bess weigh? About 9 1/2- 10 lbs.?

 

[musketman]

How much does your Bess weigh? About 9 1/2- 10 lbs.?

Yes, but that is with the full 42 inch barrel, a 39 inch barreled gun will weigh less...

There is even the carbine bess out there with a 30 1/2 inch barrel, very fast swinging gun that is, Pedersoli makes one version of it...

 

[Rebel]

Yea, i've seen the carbine version but it isn't something i would be intested in. The Sea Service Bess has a 37" barrel and the 3rd model a 39". Loyalist said the Sea Service weighs 8 lbs. The Middlesex Doglock with a 51" barrel says it is 8.8 lbs. Not bad for that long of a barrel. Get that much barrel to swinging on a bird and you wouldn't have to worry about follow through. ::

 

[riarcher]

I may be wrong, but isn't the "Dog" on the Doglock the half cock position?
Pull back, engage dog. When ready to shoot pull back to cocked (dog gets release/pushed out of the way by cam action of hammer) and fire.
Been a long time since I've seen one working, but that's what I remember seeing (sometimes I don't see too good either :.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Yup, that's the way they work. And they are actually a pretty effective safety.

 

[Rebel]

Yep, Just wondered how strong that Dog is, and if it were to break what would you do? With a half cock notch in the tumbler it seems you would be double safe and if the Dog latch broke, you would still have the half cock notch.

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

The dog, if properly made, is more than strong enough to hold the cock in place. What most photos don't show is how thick the dog actually is. It is at least as thick as the cock and usually not rounded off--it is a serious chunk of iron. The screw it pivots on is about as stout as a frizzen screw and doesn't have much stress on it. In truth, it is a simple and effective mechanism.

 

[Rat]

I have the carbine (Bess) and it weighs 8.25 but feels much lighter. I love my carbine just the way it is, especially as it matches my Jaeger in weight and length, but all things considered I think 36-37" would be an ideal barrel length for the Bess.

As I shoot grouse in heavy cover with mine, which is pretty fast action, the carbine length works pretty good for me, but can't imagine that another six or seven inches would make any difference, and would indeed swing a bit better for more open type shooting such as Huns, Pheasents, or even a quacker or two.

But there is one thing. If the Reb gets a dog-lock, he better make sure it's a WATER DOG lock.

:blah: :crackup: :blah: :crackup:

Rat

 

[robinghewitt]

Now I'm not one to go to extremes , but isn't cyanide a poisonous gas?

Hydrocyanic acid is a poisonous gas, so don't spit in the hardening tank ::

Potassium cyanide is an ancient and wonderful chemical used in the gun industry alongside mercury and arsenic.

Your body actually produces cyanide, it uses it to switch off neural receptors so they don't stay permanently on, which is why a good whiff of the stuff will switch you off.

The opposite of cyanide is the chemical that turns on your neural receptors, strychnine.

Cyanide doesn't smell of almonds, almonds smell of cyanide.

And one of the problems with being old is that you have all this garbage in your head which you regurgitate ad nauseum because you think it must be interesting :thumbsup:

 

[Okwaho]

I loved the explanation on the "true doglock" offered by Discriminating General.As I understand this explanation he seems to be saying that a "true doglock" has a tumbler with one notch and in its place a dog catch. Strangely he makes no mention of the type of sear used as to whether it is vertical as in a true flintlock or horizontal as in the case of a snaphaunce conversion to flint. I will say it again, the so called "true dog lock" is nothing more than a snaphaunce converted to flint or an early English-lock retaining the horizontal sear with no provision for a half cock notch,thus the emergence of the "dog catch" as a safety.The problem is that the term "dog lock" has come to be applied to any lock with a dog catch.I have seen dog catches on flintlocks as late as the 1720-30's and I submit that taking this so called dog lock terminology, based here on the absence of a half cock notch and the presence of a dog catch,to its logical though unlikely conclusion,a percussion lock lacking a half cock notch{and I have seen a few} but with a dog catch could therefore be termed a very late dog lock.
Another writer here is correct in saying that the dog catch works very well. That is the reason for its presence on many "English- locks" made between Ca. 1650 and Ca. 1680 where the horizontal sear was still being used.A good example of this is the Henry Crips English-lock dated 1679 {Jamestown-Yorktown Educational Fund,Jamestown, Virginia}This lock still has the snaphaunce internal tumbler and horizontal sear as well as a dog catch.Harold L. Peterson,"Arms and Armor in Colnial America" shows several early "dog locks" from New England which are really only converted snaphaunce designs.He also shows drawings{PP.22-24}which show the progression from early to late dog locks. The two early locks are snaphaunce conversions, the first{P.22}having a double sear similar to a wheel lock and a dog catch,the second one,{P.23} having a horizontal snaphaunce sear and a dog catch. The third {P.24}described as a late doglock is a classic early English-lock without a half cock notch but with a vertical sear and a dog catch.It is easy to see the next progression being the addition of a half cock notch but with the retention of a dog catch by conservative gunsmiths who perhaps didn't entirely trust the new fangled half cock notch.

As to this gun made by Discriminating General, I haven't seen one but I have seen several of their long land pattern Besses. They were quite average and I recall seeing on one of the boards a comparison of one with an original long land pattern musket.The comparison wasn't too complimentary. The ones I saw weren't at all impressive and were inordinately heavy even for a long land.They seemed rather bulky in appearance but could be possibly helped by the removal of a very large amount of wood,a daunting task for anyone but a professional gunsmith.
I noted that on another forum {Rev.War}on this board writer suggested a new gun by Early Rustic Arms which is a copy of a pre Brown Bess English infantry musket Ca.1710-1714 illustrated in "Battle Weapons of the Ammerican Revolution" by George C. Neuman. I talked to Larry Williams and wrote a post on that gun which someone may want to read.As I said, I haven't seen and handled this new gun by Discriminating General and am forced to rely on having handled one of the long land patterns.You will have to reach your own conclusions.
I am indebted for much of the information herein and especially the Henry Crips English-lock, to Beverly Ann Straub and her excellent article,"A Re-exanination of the English-Lock" presented to the ASAC in
October 1990.
Tom Patton

 

[Rebel]

Thanks to all of you for the info. It would be nice to actually see and hold one before buyiing, but that isn't possible, so i guess you just take your chances, and pray for the best. And Rat, cute one, Waterdog Lock. ::

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Tom-I think one factor regarding the weight of these India built Besses is the stock wood itself. The teak wood and according to one source, rosewood, are much heavier than the walnut that should be used. I'm not sure that enough wood could be removed to make a difference.

I'm afraid the term "dog-lock" is so deeply embedded in the collective mind that setting it right is hopeless. Alas,
to some, a dog lock will always be any lock with a catch behind the cock. A pitiful few will probably expect it to bark and chase cars, too.

 

[Rebel]

Well, as long as it doesn't mess on the carpet. :crackup: And yes, i would expect it to bark. Every time i pulled the trigger. ::

 

[Rat]

Well if ya barked a squirrel with a doglock, that would make sense.

:hmm: