Fixing Locks

[springfield art]

Hi SA,
I think both of the India-made guns are from the state of Uttar Pradesh in northern India. I believe it is the state containing the great historical city of Lucknow. I am not sure making British and French muskets has very positive cultural and historical connotations for citizens of India. I kind of doubt there would be great incentive to put their best minds to the task given the market for the guns overseas is driven by low price point. However, despite my criticisms of many of these Indian products, I in no way criticize the workers who made them. I've seen videos of their shops and they are incredibly skilled men working in very primitive conditions. They deserve respect and admiration. As a fellow skilled craftsman, I can read their work like a book. It is the marketers and consumers who perpetuate the low quality.

dave

Good background info! I certainly respect the producers; just thinking if a mgmt. team worked up a better quality product, but you have a point about the "price point" issue. We're lucky anyone at all is making such items! It's good to know the various importers and after-market craftsmen study and advise about working with these muskets. Speaking of primitive conditions, the videos of the Chinese sword-making shops are hair-raising! The lack of safety devises and protective items is astounding. Some of the most brilliant engineers, scientists, doctors, etc., are immigrants here from India. One may condemn Colonialism, but the Indian Continent did benefit overall by it's contact with England. I've only had contact with Veteran Arms, and it was positive, very good service. I like seeing comments from others who've dealt with the other importers. Have a good weekend! I'm in the camp that agrees the India muskets are good to shoot live, as long as you use common sense!

 

[Joemolf]

“My apprentice, Maria, is the armorer for Warner's Extra-Continental Regiment, the Green Mountain Boys”

Miss Maria is one fortunate young lady to be apprenticing with you Dave! Great to see what you two are up to!

 

[TRGRHAPY]

Excellent post Dave! It's neat that you are able to help the regiment by repairing their arms just as gunsmiths did in colonial times.

I just LOVE great muzzleloader gunsmithing and problem solving with an open mind! AWESOME work people!!!

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
Back to the lock on the India-made fusil de chasse. To refresh your memories it is pretty bad.

The first step was to flatten the plate inside and out and start to eliminate all the dished out screw holes caused by unskilled and over use of buffing wheels. Then I needed to put a bushing in the tumbler hole. I've done this many times and it involves filling the hole with a solid rod, peening it on both sides to lock it in place and then redrilling the tumbler hole the a little undersized, and fitting the tumbler. First it helps if the tumbler post is perfectly round. This one was not. Worse, the squared part of the post was actually wider and at an angle to the round post. So the first step was to turn the tumbler in my lathe and true up the round post and straighten out the square part. Fixing the square part will cause the cock to be loose but I will show how I fix that later. My great hope was that the spindle that fits into the bridle was concentric with the tumbler post. I've encountered India and Pedersoli made muskets that were not. Fortunately, this tumbler was concentric. Then I thought about how I could make this task easier. I got clever. The hole in the lock plate was close to the diameter needed to thread a 3/8" white lightning vent liner. The cone on the inside of the liner provides a perfect guide to center a drill for the tumbler post. BINGO! I drilled out the hole to size it for threading a 3/8" white lightning liner. I tapped the hole, counter sunk both sides, and installed the liner. I cut off the round lug and then drilled into the cone on the inside to a diameter just a hair smaller than the trued tumbler post. I peened both sides into their countersinks and filed them flush.

I then filed, stoned, and with abrasive compound, lapped the tumbler into the hole. I now have a precise fit. My worry was that the hole in the bridle would no longer line up. It did so I assembled the plate, tumbler, bridle, sear and bridle screws, and put the flint cock on. Using the flintcock as a handle, I worked the mechanism back and forth lapping it all into place.

dave

 

[Rob M.]

Great post !! Wow ! Thanks !

 

[deerstalkert]

Dave, here is a page from our old friend Bob Brownell's book gun kinks, stolen from M.C. Ray, with every bolt you may need!

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
I have that book and have admired those bolts very much. I have, in fact, made a few just like a couple of them.

dave

 

[James Kibler]

Wow! It doesn't appear those making the Indian locks have much idea of what a lock should be or how it should be made. You guys sure do have some kind of patience fighting with these things. I'm sure I'd have thrown them in the scrap hopper within the first five minutes of looking at them.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Jim,
I agree with you. I don't normally accept these lock for repair or reworking anymore. I am doing these ones because the owners are friends and at a loss to make their guns work. However, no matter how many times we mention and document the poor quality of these guns, folks are going to buy them because of the low price point. My intent for posting this is to help those folks when they buy a lemon and show them how they might go about fixing their locks. I have no intention of doing this kind of work for them, just show them how they can go about it.

dave

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
So I put the fusil lock together and tested the fit of parts. The flint cock grinds against the lock plate when tightened down. In the photo below you can see the rings on the lock plate around the tumbler hole where the cock rubs the plate.

The reason is the tumbler post does not protrude through the lock plate sufficiently to have the shoulder on which the cock rests above the lock plate.

So the solution (other than as Jim suggests, throwing it into the scrap heap) is to either thin the lock plate or add steel to the tumbler. If I thin the plate I also make the attached pan and bolster fit more loosely than it already does. You can never do just one thing on a lock. I fixed the frizzen pivot screw alignment by making a new screw. Fortunately, the original screw was undersized for its threading so I used a full sized screw, filed the hole in the bridle true to the hole in the plate, redrilled every thing and retapped the hole square with the plate. Then I had to file the hole in the frizzed to straighten it relative to the plate and fit the fatter screw sank. It worked.

Look at the sear spring.

It has no compression left at the main bend and only the tip of the lower leaf can move. You need pliers to push it into place in the lock and it is one reason the trigger pull exceeds 18-20 lbs. The pull is so hard that the trigger bar, which is soft has a notch worn into it. I cannot reshape the spring very much because the slot in the plate for the tab on the spring is so low and close to the sear. This is just ignorance or stupidity. Anyway, I will straighten the downward bend of the lower leaf a little and then thin that leaf a lot. By the way, look at that mainspring. Isn't it a real beauty?

dave

 

[waksupi]

If I had ever taken a lock like that into my shop to "fix", it would have cost them dearly, making their "good cheap deal" not so good or so cheap.

 

[HighUintas]

Dave, here is a page from our old friend Bob Brownell's book gun kinks, stolen from M.C. Ray, with every bolt you may need! View attachment 256068

Funny... I have that book. It seems to be full of good information.

 

[Cruzatte]

Oh boy...a project like this would have me tearing my hair out, and running away screaming.

 

[James Kibler]

I know I was critical of these folks who build these locks and guns, but it really is amazing what they do with little to nothing. I enjoy watching manufacturing videos from Turkey, India, pakistan etc. What they can produce with completely worn-out and junk equipment is mind-boggling. Maybe some of you have seen these youtube videos. It's actually a good way to learn about manufacturing processes.

I'd expect these locks were built by people working on the floor, holding parts with their feet and largely only using hand tools or very simple power tools. They seem hard-working and often just doing the best they can under terrible conditions.

The fact still remains that these locks are pretty bad, but maybe a little understanding is in order.

 

[FlinterNick]

I know I was critical of these folks who build these locks and guns, but it really is amazing what they do with little to nothing. I enjoy watching manufacturing videos from Turkey, India, pakistan etc. What they can produce with completely worn-out and junk equipment is mind-boggling. Maybe some of you have seen these youtube videos. It's actually a good way to learn about manufacturing processes.

I'd expect these locks were built by people working on the floor, holding parts with their feet and largely only using hand tools or very simple power tools. They seem hard-working and often just doing the best they can under terrible conditions.

The fact still remains that these locks are pretty bad, but maybe a little understanding is in order.

Bad is an understatement.

I get these all the time from my regiment.

the prevailing question I always get.

“Can i just buy a new lock”….. sure, and you can have it assembled and fit to your stock for about $700. The cost of an assembled lock and fitting it which would more than likely require modifying the stock, trigger and possibly the barrel.

An easier way to get these to work is to rebuild them with a copied lock plate, however the time and cost are generally not worth it.

 

[Sam squanch]

I think most of the problems with India made gun locks, and the guns in general, is that the workers HAVE to meet a quota, so they rush things. I feel if they were allowed to take their time , and given better quality tools, they could do amazing things.

 

[dave_person]

Hi Jim,
If you read any of my many posts about working on India-made guns, you will find that I have great respect for the workmen and their skills working under very primitive conditions and with simple tools. The culprits are the middlemen and the consumers who cannot or will not pay for good quality hand work. They perpetuate the race to the bottom. I have no doubt those skilled men could produce good quality work if given training, knowledge, good wages, and good working conditions. But there is another issue, Jim. You write frequently that many modern muzzleloader owners and shooters do not know what quality is or how good flint locks were made and perform. I am fully in agreement with you and further, these guns do nothing to improve that base of general knowledge. Some work pretty well but many do not. They perpetuate the notion that flintlocks were unreliable and military guns were crudely made. You and I both know that well designed and made flintlocks were incredibly reliable. We both know what it takes to achieve that. But those Indian makers are providing a diversity of products no American maker provides. For many folks, they are the only game in town other than custom made firearms, and they often don't want to pay the cost or wait for those. Anyway, my intent in this thread is to show some of the problems buyers will encounter with poorly made locks often on India-made guns and what to do about it. It is not cast them away but rather here is how to fix it.

dave

 

[Sam squanch]

Dave , I nominate you to go to India and form your own company!

 

[FlinterNick]

I think most of the problems with India made gun locks, and the guns in general, is that the workers HAVE to meet a quota, so they rush things. I feel if they were allowed to take their time , and given better quality tools, they could do amazing things.

Hi Jim,
If you read any of my many posts about working on India-made guns, you will find that I have great respect for the workmen and their skills working under very primitive conditions and with simple tools. The culprits are the middlemen and the consumers who cannot or will not pay for good quality hand work. They perpetuate the race to the bottom. I have no doubt those skilled men could produce good quality work if given training, knowledge, good wages, and good working conditions. But there is another issue, Jim. You write frequently that many modern muzzleloader owners and shooters do not know what quality is or how good flint locks were made and perform. I am fully in agreement with you and further, these guns do nothing to improve that base of general knowledge. Some work pretty well but many do not. They perpetuate the notion that flintlocks were unreliable and military guns were crudely made. You and I both know that well designed and made flintlocks were incredibly reliable. We both know what it takes to achieve that. But those Indian makers are providing a diversity of products no American maker provides. For many folks, they are the only game in town other than custom made firearms, and they often don't want to pay the cost or wait for those. Anyway, my intent in this thread is to show some of the problems buyers will encounter with poorly made locks often on India-made guns and what to do about it. It is not cast them away but rather here is how to fix it.

dave

Agree 100% Dave

I know many of the distributors, the profit margin they secure from selling one Indian made arm is nearly 200%.

Cheap labor and trade exchange brings in these muskets with very high demand and very low prices. This is the kind of margin that you see at a dollar store or 5 and 10, a $.25 whole sale generic can of beans by the Wiley Coyote Co sold for $1.00 is a very good margin.

I’m shocked China or Indonesia hasn’t caught on yet because many here in America would pay 200$ for a high quality product, very much so like the early miroku’s that were labeled junkers and sold for $200 each.

I’m not all that condiment much will actually change in India itself in regards to quality control, they are simply not good to their people under that economic cast system.

As far as the distributors are concerned, personally i don’t think they care very much. Some products they deliver are falling apart right out of the box, that’s not the Indian gun marker’s fault, that’s the business owner that oversaw it packaged and shipped.

Loyalist Arms does tend to do a better job, i won’t say great job but they do it better than most, at least they answer the phone and treat you like a customer.

 

[Hatman/2nd line]

Thanks Dave for another great tutorial, always enjoy the new knowledge your a fountain of!