Dissapointing day with new " to me" rifle

[dave63]

I posted last week that I bought a.54 cal T/C White Mountain Carbine at a gun show. Well, I think now I know why it was there.

Went out to shoot today, and found that the only way to get on a 12 inch target consistently, was to stay within 25 yards. Using PRB mmight get a 12 inch group. Tried several times. Even let my buddy try it. He had just zeroed his in with a 2" group at 50 yards. Same result with him shooting. Decided to try Hornady conicals. You might get two within 2 inches, then the third on would be 8 inches off. Very dissapointing.

I don't know what to do, other than get a new barrell. The rifling looks good. One thing I noticed today was that starting a .530 ball with TC .018 ticking patches, it was really tough to get them down, except for one easy spot about 6 inches long. Not a good sign.

I've also read here that your patches should not be badly burned after firing. The only parts of patches I could find were the pieces that were laying out in the field smoldering and smoking. Maybe totally unrelated. I don't know.

Well, should I just accept the fact that I lost on this deal, or does anybody have any advise? Does anybody know if the barrels from other TC's would fit this stock.

Thanks for any help.

Dave

 

[Rabbit]

Send it back to T/C. You might be surprised by what they do for you. I have sent barrels back that were shot out and gotten a new one at no charge and I wasn't the original owner.

 

[roundball]

Dave, whatever is causing the shredded, blown, burned patches has to be fixed as that is key to accuracy with a PRB...it's virtually impossible to get consistency with patches failing like that.

It sounds like you either have a loose fitting patch/ball combo allowing fire to get up around the patch, destroying it...or your powder is way too hot.

A simple experiment would be to put an Oxyoke wonderwad over the powder as a firewall to keep the patches from burning up. (even a spare .018" prelubed pillow ticking patch down on top of the powder first will act as a firewall)

And/or, if you're using fast powder like FFFg, switch to FFg and try that.

Keep the focus on one type projectile and keep eliminating factors...switching to conicals or other projectiles can often lead to multiple, confusing issues & problem solving.

 

[roundball]

If you think it's defective, "Rabbit" has the right idea...you could mark it to the attention of TC Service Manager Tim Pancurak...

 

[Zonie]

It will be interesting to hear what TC does with your problem.

The fact that you noticed a area during loading that ramming the ball/patch got easy, and then it returned to being harder indicates the barrel is "ringed".

As you probably know, ringing is caused by some knothead that didn't ram the ball all the way down on the powder, or loaded another ball but didn't ram it all the way down on top of the first ball before shooting the gun.
Another word for it is a bulged barrel.

Barrels in this condition will almost never shoot well.
IMO when the patch/ball enters this "loose" zone, it looses it's grip on the rifling and starts to slip. Also the loose zone allows burning powder gas to blow by the patch and burn it.
Some will say that a ringed barrel is dangerous to shoot. With a modern centerfire rifle where the pressures are in the 40-50 thousand CUP area I totally agree. With a blackpowder rifle where the pressures are seldom over 20,000 PSI, and the barrel wall is thick I personally don't consider it a danger, but it won't shoot worth a dam.
In any case, it most likely needs a new barrel.

For those new to buying a used blackpowder rifle, take a cleaning jag (button) and a few oiled patches with you when your shopping.
Run the jag/patch down the barrel to the breach. If it has a "loose" or "easy" area down in there, don't buy the gun.
When the cleaning patch is removed, check for rust.
If it doesn't have a loose feeling zone, and if it isn't rusty, your on your way to buying a good gun.

 

[Rat]

Definately try a wonder wad...they will turn a shredded, smoking, smouldering patch into one you can almost re-use. Just ask Bloody Bess...she'll tell you!

Different powders have to be tried. As odd as it sounds, sometimes the slower powder will smoke the patch more than a finer grain, although that's usually not the case. Whatever one you are using now, go in the other direction.

If you do have loose spot in the bore...I'd re-sell the rifle or get another barrel. But that needs to be checked with a tight fitting patch and jag in a clean barrel...don't put too much stock into how it felt while loading.

Good luck.

 

[dave63]

I've cleaned the gun, and settled down a little, but JUST a little.

I can't for the life of me find the "loose spot" that I was feeling while loading. It seems to not be there, which is like when I bought it. But it sure seemed to be there today.

I did start out with Pyrodex RS today. Not getting results I was looking for, I switched to 777 fffg. Didn't seem to notice any difference. I can believe that a shredded patch will adversely effect round balls, but I can't figure out why I couldn't get any consistency with the Hornady Great Plains Bullets. I'm just at a loss. I will try a wonder wad, if I dont unload this thing first. I think I'll give TC a call tomorrow, be honest with them, and see if they will help.

Any more ideas?

Dave

 

[dave63]

(UPDATE) Man, when it rains it pours. Looking the gun over, I have just found a hairline crack in the stock. Runs right through the bolt hole opposite the lock. I called TC, and wone of thier questions was "is the wedgepin fit tight?". I remember it being tight, but thought I'd look at it, is when I found the crack.

Could this have anything to do with the inacuracy?

Dave

 

[cayugad]

Yes it can... your rifle has some serious problems it sounds like. I would talk to someone at Thompson Center and ask them if you could mail them the whole rifle for their examination. They are best qualified to judge what is really wrong with it....

 

[Rat]

When your barrel is fouled...the fouling is not even, or the same down the bore, and that will make it feel like it has loose and tight spots. Generally, about the first six-eight inches ahead of the breech will foul heavy, then it will be lighter, and then sometimes more fouled again towards the muzzle....giving the impression of a bulged barrel...as you discovered. Again, as you know, has to be checked with a clean barrel, and a tight fitting, oiled patch and jag.

Definately sounds like bedding problems. But you also have to get a good looking fired patch. What powder charges were you using, and what kind of lube on your patches?

Send the rifle to TC for sure, and then start over. Maybe they'll give you a new stock?? Or...maybe a good gunsmith would repair the stock and glass bed your barrel, for less $$$ than either a new stock or barrel. !!!

Rat

 

[dave63]

Rat,

I started out with 90 grains (measured) of Pyrodex RS, down to 50, which did help some, then switched to 70 grains of 777 fffg. The burning patch thing only happened a couple of times. Can't really say how often. The patch was T/C .018 pillow ticking pre-lubed patches. Very tight. Some .015 cotton with bore butter was much easier to load,with about the same results.

Is the cracked stock to blame of all of this, or is the cracked stock beacause of it?

I want to sent it to T/C, but I also want to hunt with it in about 3 weeks. TC says they won't be able to look at it for 6 weeks. Maybe I'll end up hunting with the CVA Bobcat. At least I know that it'll consistently hit a target.

Thanks again.

Dave

 

[cayugad]

Dave the Triple Se7en might be the cause for your burnt patches. I have a CVA Mountian Stalker (Bobcat) that shoots excellent with Triple Se7en then a wonder wad then a patched roundball. Without the wonderwad, I have watched that patch land downrange on smoking and almost all torn up. With the wonderwad I swear I could shoot the same patch over again, and have just to see if it could be done.

As for the cracked stock.. I would not hunt with the rifle. I would send it back to Thompson Center for repair and a checkup... Why take a chance with a rifle that you have no faith in...

 

[madstone]

Dave,
These folks don't miss a trick!
The fact that the loose spot was several inches long hints that this area was probably not a "ring?
Most likely your thourough cleaning removed some of the residue from "all the rest" of the barrel and now you only need to REALLY" clean the whole barrel.
Usually the "ring" happens at the weak areas near a dovetail, either for sights or barrel tenons. Carefully measuring the barrel's outside contour will detect it, too. Easier on octogon barrels, though.
I once had an antique win94 with a prominate ring a few inched shart of the muzzle. It shot like a target gun! Rare, though.
There's a thread in here somewhere about residue from some powders being very difficult to remove and odds are this is the culprit!
Measure your twist and some of these folks can recommend a winning load.
I love a 54! Even the round ball is very effective.
:results: