Dixie TN Mt. Rifle Percussion to Flint Questions

[TNGhost]

Recently purchased an older Dixie TN Mt. Rifle, in .50, that is a percussion. Also picked up an L&R replacement flint lock and a vent(5/16 x 24) with the idea of going to flint. When I got the vent from Dixie I also picked up an extra drum as the screw was buggered on the original.

The lock fit well with just a little shaving in the mortice, nice and tight and right up to the barrel, lined up nice.

My problem is with the vent. It will go in a turn or two, then stop, and it seems it would take considerable force to continue. The same is true of the new drum, while the old drum screws right in, no problem. The threads are very close on all, but the newer parts, and it may be just my imagination, seem just a little different. Even with a thread gauge its hard to see any difference, at least with my older eyes. I don't want to force the vent and screw up the threads. What do I have wrong here? Any Ideas?

 

[Ken Cormier]

I would really try to figure out the weather you have a metric thread in the barrel. If I remember correctly those guns in the early days were made in Belgian. The later one's were made in J A Pan. If that does not work out. Retap the hole with American threads insert a s/s bolt and drill a new vent hole and sell the persuasion lock thingy. :2

.Ps always thought those guns were cool.

 

[Zonie]

IMO, rethreading the hole may not be a good option.

In order to do it right, the minor diameter of the new thread must be larger than the major diameter of the old thread.

Put another way, the tap drill of the new thread must be larger than the outside diameter of the old thread.

If it isn't, the newly cut threads will be missing the lower part of them. That will make them weaker.

Then, there is a limit to how large a vent holes threads can be without extending into the next barrel flat on a octagon barrel.

The threads on the new 5/16-24 vent (.3125) are just slightly smaller than a 8mm metric thread (.3150) so even measuring them with a dial caliper won't show a significant difference in size.

The 8mm metric threads come in both 0.75mm and 1.0mm pitches.

The 1.0 pitch threads are spaced 1 mm apart so, using our method of describing threads they would be 1/.0394 = 25.4 threads per inch.

Notice, this is almost the same as the 5/16-24 (24 threads per inch) but the threads have 1.4 more threads per inch.

This difference in thread spacing will allow the 5/16-24 thread to start into the M8-1mm hole but it will soon bind up making it impossible to screw further in.

See if you can get a 8.0mm-1.0mm threaded vent liner and I believe your problems will be gone.

 

[TNGhost]

Thank you guys for the help. The barrel of the rifle says made in Japan, on the side, and Dixie Gun Works, Union City Tennessee on the top.

According to an old(80s?) DGW catalog I have, that shows the rifle when introduced, it was available with a conversion flint/cap cap/flint, depending on what you got, and gives the dimension of 5/16x24 for the drum/vent. My goal is to be able to switch back and forth from flint to percussion like they advertised back then.

Following up on Zonie's advice I searched some for an 8Mx1.0 vent with no joy, so I headed to the big box home store. I picked up bolts in 8mx1.0 and 8mx1.25(just for S&Gs) and both do the same as the new vent and drum, start in but freeze up soon. Old drum still goes right in, fits snug with no slop, using a wrench to go the last couple turns. The threads on both the drum and the barrel look good with no obvious burrs, nicks, etc.

I am wondering now if the new parts may be metric? Of course I wasn't smart enough to spend another $2 and grab matching nuts or 5/16x24 stuff to check further. Oh well, next trip into town I'll grab 'em and give it a try. I'll keep you posted.

 

[Scota4570]

Measure the major diameter of the thread. Measure the thread pitch with a gauge. Look it up, the results and determine what you got. Just trying stuff you buy is not a good way to figure it out. I can't find it right now but, at home I have a chart on the wall. It has all common US and Metric threads with TPI and size in inches. Just measure and look up on the chart.

 

[TNGhost]

Just took your advice and measured the major diameter of the threads. 8mx1 bolt = .309, old drum from rifle .310, new vent and drum .312 not sure what that means?

Also I have to admit that these measurements were taken with a Lyman plastic vernier that I use for reloading :redface: (I know, I know if I am going to do stuff like this I need to invest in better tools)

Earlier I tried using fold out thread gauges, meteric and US, the kind that comes with tap and die sets, but it was hard for me to differentiate between the original and the newer parts.

 

[mazo kid]

No help to you now, but I had a very early left hand Mountain Rifle, percussion. I wanted a flint lock, but not at the $125.00+ Dixie price. I ended up getting the left hand hammer and frizzen, used all the other original parts. The vent liner just screwed right in, no problem. I got those parts from Dixie, but they are all gone now. I would suggest taking your drum to the hardware store and trying it in the "thread checker".

 

[torn moc]

Dixie has 1/4x28 and 5/16x24 vents liners...I just put one in my "cart" and its dosent show backordered,,,so I figger they have em on stock. http://www.dixiegunworks.com/default.php?cPath=22_93_463_475_476
Trac of the wolf sells the same http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Cate...EFT-HAND-FLINT-PARTS-LIST/KIT-SML-15-40-FLINT



and the L&R replacement flintlock is now $148...whew.

By the way...can you post some pics of that Tennessee rifle? don't see many of them anymore..

 

[torn moc]

It just occurred to me that the problem is that
Southern Mountain Rifle parts only fit rifles when they are South of the MASON DIXON LINE :rotf:

 

[poco47]

With the help of a friend, who knows more about this stuff than I, I'm too am in the process of converting a Dixie Mtn. rifle from percussion to flint using an L&R lock and vent liner from TOTW.



This rifle was a kit and while the builder did a better job of it that I would have, the finished rifle does have its eccentricities. As originally built, the percussion lock ended up slightly canted and did not fit flush with the barrel flat. The good news is that the L & R lock fits flush, the bad news is that the new lock plate is not an exact match to the DGW one--it's not as long--hence there is a little gap in the inletting at the front, though it's not obnoxious because it still sits on the inner shelf that on this rifle defines the perimeter of the inlet.



My friend who's doing the conversion for me also reports that, once the new lock was installed, he had to "tweak" the double set triggers so that they would release the sear. Not sure what all that involved but I'm glad he was the one doing it and not me.

A bit more problematic is the fact that the new Track of the Wolf vent liner sits higher than it should in relation to the pan. My understanding is that the vent should bisect a line drawn across the top of the pan from side to side. With the new lock in place, the vent hole is above this line. In addition, the diameter of the hole itself is too small allowing it to clog quickly and the liner is too long so that it protrudes into the bore and wont allow a cleaning jag to reach the face of the breech. Here's a picture.



After the lock was installed, a quick function test out at the range resulted in at least five misfires in the ten shots I had time for. A clogged vent combined with my not being careful to bank the prime in the pan so that it sat just below the hole seemed to be the main reasons for the frequent flash in the pans. Naturally, in my haste to get to the range, I left my vent pick at home so I had a devil of a time improvising some way to clear the vent. Suffice it to say I did finally figure a way out of this bind on the spot and was able to clear the vent every time it needed it. When the rifle did go off it did so with dispatch as the lock produced plenty of spark.

When I got home, I did a little research and found that many builders use 1/16" (or .0625) vent holes in rifles .50 and above. As best I can measure, this vent liner is drilled .0420.

So, the plan now is to drill out the vent hole to 1/16" or thereabouts, dish the front of the liner, and shorten its overall length. Hopefully that will resolve all the misfire issues. If not, then we'll have to make a new liner out of a bolt with hole drilled at an angle to better align with the pan.

 

[TNGhost]

Got it. After measuring everything two or three times, I ran a bronze .30 brush into the touch hole with a drill to clean it up more, then started the new drum in and turned it flush with a wrench. It was a little hard to turn, but went in OK. Tried the old drum and it still fits good, and snug. Next put the vent in and carefully tightened it down and viola. Thank all of you for your help, and patience, I'm not the quickest at times.

On to discovering the fascination with this flintlock thing, looks like a lot to learn about flints, knapping, priming, picking....looking forward to it, can't wait to shoot it.

slowgo, that is a pretty looking rifle. I have wanted one of these for years since they came out, but never was in the right place at the right time. Finally ran across one at price I could afford. Not nearly as good looking as yours though.

Mine, I believe was also a kit, but a little lacking in assembly. There were some screws missing, and some issues with the lock inletting and the barrel, as well as some other cosmetic flaws. However, it was apparently well used, as you can tell its been toted around some, with some dings and scratches on the stock, and there is finish wear around the ignition system, and other places. The barrel had some rust in it when I got it but, it seems to have cleaned up nicely and looks bright and strong.

The L&R lock I got, second hand NOS, fit right in. No problems with the sear matching up to the triggers and just the slightest gap around the front end of the lockplate. The hole on the vent, which I got from DGW, does seem to line up with that imaginary line across the pan. So we'll see how it goes.


l'll report back once I've shot it, probably with more questions. :grin:

 

[TNGhost]

It just occurred to me that the problem is that
Southern Mountain Rifle parts only fit rifles when they are South of the MASON DIXON LINE :rotf:

Well, I spent the better portion of my life in Dixie, and I like to consider the premises here a little bit of soveriegn territory. I try to show the yankees around here, that drop by, hospitality befitting that :wink: .

I would post pics, but I am going to have to take time to learn about hosting sites, etc., never done that before. Besides it'll give me a chance to gussy her up a little, once I find out how she shoots.

 

[torn moc]

SO...what size vent did eventually work for you?

 

[TNGhost]

It was the 5/16x24 that I got from DGW.

 

[vulture]

Next time you head into town take both the old drum and the new drum with you and then play around with the standard and metric nuts, burrs to some folks, and see what will thread on easy, you will then know what each is threaded for and can go from there. For me it is a lot easier to stick the parts in my pocket when headed to my Ace Hardware and then just start going through all the nut or bolt containers, depending on which I'm looking for, until I find one that attaches nice and easy and there I am, right parts.

 

[TNGhost]

Next time you head into town take both the old drum and the new drum with you and then play around with the standard and metric nuts, burrs to some folks, and see what will thread on easy, you will then know what each is threaded for and can go from there. For me it is a lot easier to stick the parts in my pocket when headed to my Ace Hardware and then just start going through all the nut or bolt containers, depending on which I'm looking for, until I find one that attaches nice and easy and there I am, right parts.

Good advice, my problem is, I usually walk into the hardware store, and think, darn, I should have remembered to bring those parts with me to check :grin: