Do I just have a “short-range” rifle?

[Widows Son]

Hello all. I’ve got an update here. I found a very accurate load that cloverleafs at 50m.
50 grains of fffg using pillow ticking .018 thick and a .445 ball cast from the softest lead I could get. The pic shows two 3 shot groups. I’m very pleased.
However, 100m accuracy is still dreadful. The next pic shows my target. I was,aiming for the top right target and the bullets hit the bottom right instead. I tried 50 grains, 60, 70 and 75 grain loads, wiping between shots. Interestingly the heavier powder charges made no difference in elevation or spread. The top sheet of paper, the actual target, is untouched.
I tried my best to get a picture of the rifling, which is quite fine or shallow in my opinion. I expect the problem is there. The rifling isn’t putting enough bite on the ball.

 

[Widows Son]

Hello all. I’ve got an update here. I found a very accurate load that cloverleafs at 50m.
50 grains of fffg using pillow ticking .018 thick and a .445 ball cast from the softest lead I could get. The pic shows two 3 shot groups. I’m very pleased.
However, 100m accuracy is still dreadful. The next pic shows my target. I was,aiming for the top right target and the bullets hit the bottom right instead. I tried 50 grains, 60, 70 and 75 grain loads, wiping between shots. Interestingly the heavier powder charges made no difference in elevation or spread. The top sheet of paper, the actual target, is untouched.
I tried my best to get a picture of the rifling, which is quite fine or shallow in my opinion. I expect the problem is there. The rifling isn’t putting enough bite on the ball.

I accidentally posted extra photos of the same things. I don’t seem to be able to edit them. Sorry

 

[Britsmoothy]

Have you measured the bore or groove diameter accurately? What was the twist again?

 

[Flintlock]

Have you had someone else try it, a fresh pair of eyes might make all the difference. Do you have other open sighted guns you shoot very well at 100 yards.

 

[Grenadier1758]

I am suspecting that your rifle is shooting a little low at 50 meters. I would concentrate on shooting good consistent groups. Then I would adjust the sights so that the group is about 1" high at 50 m. Your three shot groups seem to indicate two groups. The top group is about 1 1/2" higher and 1" left of the bottom group. Did anything change between those two groups?

You have a third target picture. What was the distance to the third target? What was the aim point?

Your rifling does seem a bit shallow. Have you measured the land to land diameter and the groove to groove diameter to determine the actual groove depth? You may want to try using 0.022" thick patching or thicker as the thicker patching may engrave on the lands better.

 

[BS]

Get some good quality .010 linen, and use a bigger ball......bore size or .002 under.

 

[tenngun]

I appreciate everyone’s help.

The twist is 1:48. A bit too fast for round ball but that’s what it is. The balls are within a couple grains.
The barrel is snug in the stock, but I’ll check the drum. I understand it’s best if there is a small gap between the lock and the drum.
Iron sights, traditional blade and notch longrifle style
Yes I should have mentioned that I increase the powder charge to 60g otherwise the balls wont reach the target at 100m.

What kind of accuracy is typical for a .45 round ball at 100? 5-6 inch group maybe?

The 1/48 is not too fast for a ball, it was common in the old days.
At 1000 fps a .45 ball will slow to about 750 fps at a hundred yards, more then enough to get to the target, that’s a 30 grain charge
Go back to twenty five yards. Try different patch thickness and lubes, and go up or down on your charges till you have one ragged hole at this range. Then go to fifty and a hundred
Be sure it’s from a solid rest.
I’m happy with four inches at a hundred years and five more reasonable, but ain’t going to put ribbons on the wall. I bet we have more then one shooter on this forum that’s getting two inch groups at that range

 

[Crow-Feather]

Hello all.
I have a 1976 Pedersoli Plainsman caplock .45 that has been looked after by previous owner(s). The bore is shiny and the riflings all appear in good nik, even though they appear to be cut shallow. Recovered patches show no tears or ragged spots.

My frustration with it comes from not being able to hit anything beyond 50 metres. Up to 50 metres it groups very well (under 2 inches). However at 100 metres the target looks like it’s been hit with a shotgun. Absolutely no predicable point of impact and nothing you could call a group.

Yes. I have been through a lengthy, patient and systematic process of trying different patches, lubricants, ball sizes, powder charges and granulation. However I cannot find what this rifle needs beyond 50m. I wipe the bore between shots. I’ve come to wonder if this is simply a short range rifle and that’s all there is to it? Am I asking more than it’s designed for?

The results of my experiments to arrive at 50m accuracy are a .445 ball in a 15 thousands cotton patch using a 1:5 ratio of Ballistol and water and a teaspoon of dish soap. 45 grains of fffg Wano (Scheutzen). Off a stable rest, that will produce a 2 inch group wiping between shots.

Has anyone any advice or opinion?

The patch fills the grooves of the bore and grips the ball imparting spin which makes for accuracy. If the patch is too thin, it won't fill the grooves and will not impart spin to the ball. Thus you will have poor accuracy. One reason for having a smaller diameter ball and a thicker patch. Try a 440 ball and a .20 patch. It might be harder to get down the bore but the results should be worth it.

 

[troy2000]

I appreciate everyone’s help.

The twist is 1:48. A bit too fast for round ball but that’s what it is. The balls are within a couple grains.
The barrel is snug in the stock, but I’ll check the drum. I understand it’s best if there is a small gap between the lock and the drum.
Iron sights, traditional blade and notch longrifle style
Yes I should have mentioned that I increase the powder charge to 60g otherwise the balls wont reach the target at 100m.

What kind of accuracy is typical for a .45 round ball at 100? 5-6 inch group maybe?

My .40 cal Kibler southern mountain rifle has 1:48 twist, and I think Jim knows a little bit about muzzleloaders...

Question: when you increase the powder charge to 60g, do you still get 2" groups at 50 yards?

 

[Grenadier1758]

As others have stated, the 1 in 48 twist is not too fast for round ball.

You do need a patch lubricant that is not so slippery. Have you tried dampening the patches in your patch lube then drying on a flat surface to use a dry patch. I might consider using the Ballistol at a 1 to 7 ratio. The dry patch will provide decent lubrication since you are wiping between shots. What solution are you using when you wipe between shots? I use rubbing alcohol. A mix of water with a drop of dish washing soap will take the hard fouling out and leave what's left soft.

How well do you see the target at 100 meters? You may want to try a peep sight or a pin hole on your shooting glasses.

 

[Sam squanch]

I’m happy with four inches at a hundred years

???

 

[Sam squanch]

My great aunt was saying that just the other day......

 

[tenngun]

Sorry spell check, yards
Not real good, but I don’t hunt at a hundred yards. Two inch’s at fifty is plenty good for me, I shoot a smoothie most of the time.

 

[George]

My frustration with it comes from not being able to hit anything beyond 50 metres. Up to 50 metres it groups very well (under 2 inches). However at 100 metres the target looks like it’s been hit with a shotgun. Absolutely no predicable point of impact and nothing you could call a group.

Your group at 50M, if extended to 100m, would be under 4 inches. Anything larger than that would have to mean something caused the balls to suddenly change their path after passing 50m. In the absence of wind I don't know of anything which could cause that. The physics of the situation says it won't/can't.

So, if all parameters, ball and patch, lube, powder, shooting rest, etc. are all exactly the same at 50m and 100m, it leaves one variable, the shooter. My guess is that you are having difficulty holding the same consistent sight picture at 100m as you do at 50m. That will sound very familiar to many people on the board, including me.

Someone asked earlier if you have other rifles with similar sights with which you can shoot those smaller groups at 100m and whether you have had another good shooter try the rifle at 100m. Good questions.

Spence.

 

[troy2000]

Your group at 50M, if extended to 100m, would be under 4 inches. Anything larger than that would have to mean something caused the balls to suddenly change their path after passing 50m. In the absence of wind I don't know of anything which could cause that. The physics of the situation says it won't/can't.

So, if all parameters, ball and patch, lube, powder, shooting rest, etc. are all exactly the same at 50m and 100m, it leaves one variable, the shooter. My guess is that you are having difficulty holding the same consistent sight picture at 100m as you do at 50m. That will sound very familiar to many people on the board, including me.

Someone asked earlier if you have other rifles with similar sights with which you can shoot those smaller groups at 100m and whether you have had another good shooter try the rifle at 100m. Good questions.

Spence.

And again, I'd like to know if he tried the 60g load at 50 yards, and got the same results as when using the lighter loads. It's possible the heavier charge is overpowering the ability of shallow rifling to grip the patch and ball... or just creating different harmonics in the barrel.

 

[griffiga]

I blame poor shooting at 100 yards on old eyes.....

 

[troy2000]

I blame poor shooting at 100 yards on old eyes.....

It's the reason for my poor shooting. Or at least that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

In other news though, I just bought a Johnson peep sight for my .40 cal Kibler. We'll see if it makes any difference...

 

[Grenadier1758]

Your group at 50M, if extended to 100m, would be under 4 inches. Anything larger than that would have to mean something caused the balls to suddenly change their path after passing 50m. In the absence of wind I don't know of anything which could cause that. The physics of the situation says it won't/can't.

...

Spence.

Actually, the physical explanation is the deceleration of the ball through the sound barrier. There is considerable turbulence as the ball drops down in velocity. One should try to keep the ball's velocity either above or below the speed of sound all the way to the target.

 

[griffiga]

It's the reason for my poor shooting. Or at least that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

In other news though, I just bought a Johnson peep sight for my .40 cal Kibler. We'll see if it makes any difference...

I have found that peep sights help my eyes focus better. I just put a Pedersoli Soule tang on my High Wall and I've noticed a huge difference. I've yet to put one on a muzzleloader, but I'm seriously thinking about it.

 

[TreeMan]

My 45 green mountain barrel will clover leaf at 50 yards with 70 grains of 3F in its 1-66 barrel. My point of impact at 100 yards is exactly 6 inches lower than at 50 yards. I hold over that 6 inches. Some months at our matches I can hold a four inch group at 100 keeping them all in the black. Sometimes I just flub up and throw one out. Wind, lighting, and a dozen other factors can make that worse. Some months I just flat out suck. I shoot with 50 others and I see very few of those 1” groups people like to brag about all the time. It’s very difficult with period sights to shoot 1” inch groups. Like me if your groups are that bad at 100 and you can cloverleaf them at 50 then you have other environmental factors at play or you just suck at shooting at 100 yards. It’s just not the rifle or your load. There I said it lol.most folks I shoot matches with are extremely happy to keep their shots in the black with a random 10x in the mix at 100.