Do maxis, conicals, ball-ets move in the bore

[Mad Professor]

I've had a 425gr Hornaday GP move in a 54 cal GM barrel. In spite of the fact that the last band is hard to get started, warm weather and the lube was runny.

Check this link to paper patching:
paper patching

 

[arcticap]

I try to carry and still hunt with the muzzle pointing straight up by using a butt holster. It's like a shallow leather pouch that attaches to the belt and the butt plate rests inside of it to support the rifle. This also helps to take a load off the arms during extended carry.
As an over shot wad in shotguns, I ball up a newspaper as a wad and tamp it down tightly. It doesn't seem to interfere with the load any and could be tried in a conical loaded rifle too.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The Hornady bullet was designed with that top driving band just for that purpose. The band is wider than the bore diameter, so that you score the lands on the band when you seat the bullet in the muzzle.

Yom might think the folks at Hornady actually made bullets as their main product, NO? :hmm: :rotf: :wink: :thumbsup:

 

[Idaho Ron]

The top band on the Lee REAL 50 cal is .517 I would not think they would back out. I have never carried them for hunting.
Paul, that would seem funny that Hornady would get it right. :thumbsup:
Ron

 

[Dphar]

The top band on the Lee REAL 50 cal is .517 I would not think they would back out. I have never carried them for hunting.
Paul, that would seem funny that Hornady would get it right. :thumbsup:
Ron

Once they are run down the bore they are all pretty loose. The are then sized to the bore and have little friction.
If feel you need more power just get a bigger bore RB gun. This REALLY works. Some of the modern bullets leave a lot to be desired in terminal performance from reports I have read.

PRBs don't move once seated.

This deer was shot at 90 yards (by laser) with a 16 bore (.662 ball) at about 1650 MV and he dropped in his tracks and kicked a little. No major bones were struck though the ball passed just under the spine at the front of the chest cavity. Impact point is above the forend cap in this photo. I REALLY doubt a 54 maxi would have performed as well based on reports.
This is hands down the best ML hunting rifle I have ever owned. Shoots flat to 130 yards. Has plenty of power. Shoots pure lead or hardened balls equally well and loaded with a paper cartridge with no patch it shoots in the same group as patched balls to at least 50 yards providing a fast and accurate second shot if needed
It also operates at lower breech pressure than the conicals. Giving 1650 fps with only 35% of ball weight of FFG Swiss in a 31" barrel including the breech.
The flattened .662 ball pictured was recovered from a Mule Deer doe shot at 40 yards while facing me. It took out the heart and she traveled about 50 yards leaving an easily followed blood trail.
What I am saying is that the conical is not necessary for hunting. A 50 cal RB is perfectly adequate for deer to 100 yards.

Dan

 

[Idaho Ron]

Once they are run down the bore they are all pretty loose. The are then sized to the bore and have little friction.

The Hornady bullets in my gun are all very snug.

If feel you need more power just get a bigger bore RB gun. This REALLY works. Some of the modern bullets leave a lot to be desired in terminal performance from reports I have read.

So you have no personal knowledge just speculation?

the conical is not necessary for hunting.

Neither is a RB.
Ron

 

[Glenfilthie]

Well Dan, that picture just made my day. I wish I was there to have seen you shoot that deer. It makes a fella decompress a few gigapascals just looking at it.

It was -30 C here this morning and I am getting some serious cabin fever happening. I need a good afternoon with a soot burner in the worst way.

 

[musketman]

I had a Ball-et fall out the end of the barrel on my TC PA Hunter while being carried. Since a bullet off the powder charge could act like a bore obstruction, this led me to think these lubricated bullets could be less safe than either a PRB or a bullet in a sabot.

Do maxi/conical hunters use the ramrod to verify that the bullet is seated on the powder charge from time to time during a hunt?

One time I was out hunting deer in the early 1980's with my T/C Renegade using Maxiballs, I was crossing some rocks and I tripped and fell to the ground, dropping my rifle in the process.

Once I regained my composure, I deprimed and checked the barrel for any obstructions (mud, snow, etc.), I checked the maxiball with the ramrod and was shocked to see it moved almost eight inches up the barrel. From that day on I shifted to patched roundballs as my main projectile.

 

[Dphar]

Once they are run down the bore they are all pretty loose. The are then sized to the bore and have little friction.

The Hornady bullets in my gun are all very snug.

If feel you need more power just get a bigger bore RB gun. This REALLY works. Some of the modern bullets leave a lot to be desired in terminal performance from reports I have read.

So you have no personal knowledge just speculation?

the conical is not necessary for hunting.

Neither is a RB.
Ron

I have never fired a ML conical/maxi/mini/ballete at animals. But I know people who have. I *have* killed quite a number, 50-70 deer, antelope and Elk with various sized RBs and a considerable number with BPCRs shooting bullets of similar weight to some ML bullets but generally of better design and higher sectional density.
I have also shot or seen shot a significant number with modern centerfires.

You know what? A deer shot in the lungs with a 45-50-54-58 or 66 caliber RB, or a 40-44-45-50 bullet from a Sharps or a 30-06 or 7mm mag ALL RUN ABOUT THE SAME DISTANCE on *average*. Some run 200 yards, some, a few, drop in their tracks most cover about 40-50 yards. A BP loaded 38-40 is a VERY anemic big game hunting round. One reason I have only shot one deer with it, a medium sized MD buck at about 40 yards. He went about 50 yards after being shot in the lungs. Very poor wound channel even with a soft FP bullet, deer still died on schedule.

Given this experience I see little advantage in shooting a bullet from a ML of a type that is known for not staying on the powder, increases breech pressure and promotes nipple erosion and was seldom if ever used for civilian purposes "back in the day".
The maxi-ball is not all that efficient either it seems I know of people who abandoned it years ago in favor of RBs of the same caliber and they shoot MOOSE. The problem is the design causes the nose to fold into the front groove rather than expanding making for minimal tissue damage and they tell me they often do not track straight on striking the animal causing the vitals to be missed. A problem noted over 150 years ago with the Minie.
Properly sized for the game the RB is PERFECTLY adequate for taking anything one is likely to shoot with a shoulder fired weapon.
The modern ML conical was developed to make money for the makers and because of a *perceived* problem with the RB which is reality does not exist being based on the failed idea that muzzle energy is an *accurate* measure of killing power which it is not.

Yes a 66 caliber RB will carry more energy than a 54 but its the WOUND CHANNEL and the striking area that make it a good killer. Take the .662 RBs 90 yard energy, about 1100 ft lbs with 1650 MV, and it is still pretty anemic compared to a 30-06 at the same distance. But it kills as well or better. So what does the energy actually prove?
I have shot MD at well over 100 with 50 and 54 caliber RB rifles and never had ANY problems with penetration. The picture below is of the upper leg bone of a gown MD does shot with a 54 caliber PISTOL at about 30 yards. Ball broke the bone, took out the arteries over the heart and the deer piled up in about 40 yards. Ball was under the far side hide. It is flattened on BOTH sides apparently it turned over at some point to do this. I cannot see where I would have gained anything shooting a conical.

I have shot a deer and an antelope (shot through the mouth by someone with a HV gun) with a 6" 50 cal belt pistol and got through and through penetration on antelope on a 25-30 yard broadside shot. The mule deer buck was also wounded (by me sloppy shooting or bad luck) but laying down the ball was so slow it hardly deformed but penetrated completely through the chest at a diagonal including the heavy shoulder muscles on the entrance side. Lodged under the hide at the diaphragm.

No, RBs are not needed to kill game, people do it with pointed sticks all the time. But that was not the context of the discussion here.

Have you ever tested the bullets to see if they move if the gun is bumped or jarred? I tested maxi-balls when they first came out, they move. Others have indicated movement of these and other similar designs in actual use.

Its bed time in Montana
Dan

 

[Idaho Ron]

Have you ever tested the bullets to see if they move if the gun is bumped or jarred? I tested maxi-balls when they first came out, they move. Others have indicated movement of these and other similar designs in actual use.

Its bed time in Montana
Dan

Most of your post is off topic but I will reply one more time.
I do not use TC Maxi balls, or maxi hunters both are a waste of lead in my book. Hornady Great Plains bullets do NOT come off the powder in my guns, but I have never slammed the muzzle into the rocks or cement. I have had them nose down in the pickup, ATV, and in normal hunting hunting use they have never backed off the powder in my guns. I am kind of picky that I don't drop my guns or bounce them nose first into the rocks. Ron

 

[oneshot]

I have had Great Plains Bullets come off the powder.I was told I was to Foul the Barrel before loading.

oneshot

 

[Dphar]

Most of your post is off topic but I will reply one more time.
I do not use TC Maxi balls, or maxi hunters both are a waste of lead in my book. Hornady Great Plains bullets do NOT come off the powder in my guns, but I have never slammed the muzzle into the rocks or cement. I have had them nose down in the pickup, ATV, and in normal hunting hunting use they have never backed off the powder in my guns. I am kind of picky that I don't drop my guns or bounce them nose first into the rocks. Ron

You asked the questions and inferred I lacked experience.

If they do not move then lucky you.
However, this "phenomenon" has been known since the adoption of the Minie ball and carried over to the modern somewhat tighter fitting "naked" conical. So its a valid question to ask.
The bullet coming out the muzzle is not the first time I have heard of this or similar.

Dan

 

[Dphar]

I have had Great Plains Bullets come off the powder.I was told I was to Foul the Barrel before loading.

oneshot

Do those who told you this sell barrels?
This is certainly a good way to pit a bore if left loaded all day after "fouling".

Dan

 

[paulvallandigham]

While fouling the barrel in military engagements ensured that subsequent minie's didn't move in the barrel, that practice was advised at a time when bore dimensions were "Loose " at best, and the Minie's that were provided were purposely sized several thousandths of an inch undersize. If someone ruined a barrel by leaving a barrel fouled all day long, so what? The Government provided a new barrel.

Now, that advice you were given is about as stupid sounding as I have heard. :shocked2: :cursing: :redface: Dan is right. Sounds like something a dealer in gun barrels might tell some newbie who doesn't know better, so he can make another sale on his barrels in a few months.

If you will talk to the current serious shooters, who shoot conicals, they are sizing those bullets to about .001" under bore size, which means that the lube they put on the bullets will tend to hold the bullet in place. But, they also use base wads, and many use OS cards on top of the bullet to hold it in place( 2 should do it). The cards are thin, and easily separate and fall from the line of fire of the bullet as it leaves the muzzle of the rifle.

There are conicals out there that are intentionally made with a forward driving band that is several thousandths LARGER than the bore( land to land) diameter of the guns for which they were designed. The lower bands are under bore diameter so that you can start the bullet easily into the muzzle of your CLEAN barrel. Then, a sharp rap on your short starter will score the lands into the driving band to hold the bullet in the rifling, centered, and the bullet can then be run down onto the powder charge. Again, most target shooters find they get better accuracy if they use a Groove diameter, or larger, Base wad to protect the base of the bullet, and to prevent blow-by of the gases. Some extraordinary accuracy is obtained when guns are loaded this way. These bullets do not shift forward with handling, because of the tight hold of the driving band.

But,loading a conical bullet in a fouled barrel is not the way to get good accuracy. The shooter may get better accuracy with that fouled barrel than shooting that terribly undersized bullet from his clean barrel, but we are talking 10" groups at 50 yards, vs. 8" groups at 50 yards. For the military use of firearms in volley fire, at close range, this is good enough. By today's standards, its embarrassingly poor shooting.

CLEAN your barrel between shots if you want to keep a good barrel.

SIZE your conicals properly for your bore diameter. Sizing dies are available in .001" increments, so no one should have any trouble getting bullets the right size for his rifle.

Good shooting. :thumbsup:

 

[Mad Professor]

My experience is otherwise.

I have had a Hornaday GP move in a 1-28 54 cal GM barrel (425gr) and a 1-48 58 cal lyman barrel (525gr).

Both barrels are a "smack it" fit to get the last band into the barrel and I have shot hundreds out of both rifles.

I now use lube thick enough to hold things in place and/or paper patch when hunting.

I have not tried the 50 cal version in my 1-28 GM barrels so I cannot comment on them. I use 385gr buffalo bullets in the 50, they have not moved, yet.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Mad Professor, I do think the physics of the thing makes it more likely that a HEAVY , Larger Caliber conical is more likely to move, even when the driving band is indexed on the lands of the barrel, than a smaller caliber conical similarly loaded. Everything about how a flintlock fires, for instance, seems to change when you get to about .58 caliber, using either balls or conicals. I notice that even FFg powder burns much more completely with the larger bores than it does with the smaller ones.

Since I am not shooting conicals in any of my current guns, I am not testing these again, but relying on past observations and experiences. I was particularly concerned about both ball movement and conical movement in the barrel when I first began shooting, some 34 years ago.

I think the simpler solution is simply either paper patch the bullets, or use OS cards on top of the bullets to keep them in place. 24 gauge OS cards are available that will work just fine in a .58 caliber gun. Poke a hole off-center in the cards, and then put two cards on top of the bullet, with the holes on opposite sides . The holes let air in the barrel OUT so you can seat the OS cards quickly, and not experience compression and "dieseling" as you do. And, by using cards with the off-center holes, you avoid ruining the edges, which you need to provide the friction to hold the heavy bullet in place in the barrel. Those same holes let air separate the two cards right outside the muzzle, so they drop out of the line of fire when the bullet is at its maximum velocity.

 

[oneshot]

I have had Great Plains Bullets come off the powder.I was told I was to Foul the Barrel before loading.

oneshot

Do those who told you this sell barrels?
This is certainly a good way to pit a bore if left loaded all day after "fouling".

Dan

Well in truth yes.CVA says to foul the Barrel if using Conicals.

And Doc White says to foul the Barrels on his Rifles and Shotguns.

But I shoot PB out of my rifles and don't foul my Shotguns for the fact I may leave them loaded for days.

oneshot