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Shine said:
This is why I think texting will start world war three. Im sorry if I miss understood anything.



Hanshi don't text.

Trappers (at least where I came from) were legally required to carry a .22 to dispatch trapped critters. Those who have had experiences with muskrats, bobcats and coons, as I have, KNOW these guys weren't designed by Walt Disney. :v
 
The problem with the thread seems to be from a poor premise...stemming from reductio ad absurdum, reducing an argument to an absurd extreme; then criticizing that extreme.

Wattsy, the "do your part" means (from what I have always understood) all of the objections that you alluded..., the hunter must gain all of the skills to place himself into the position to properly place a shot while using the proper weapon.

You seem to assume that phrase refers to mere marksmanship, and that folks were not only stating but advocating using improper weapons for harvesting big game..., which was where the argument was reduced to absurdity.

I have no idea what is the quality of the hunters out where you hunt, but all too often I have seen on the East Coast, folks who go "hunting" who react opposite to your criteria, they think, or have been taught, any shot is good so long as the caliber is large enough. I have encountered so called "experienced" hunters telling folks that some very venerable, proven, and potent cartridges are inadequate, and a person with less than "X" cartridge "can't take deer".

They base this on the number of deer that they, or members of their hunting party, have wounded that also eluded them and got away. The idea that they made a crappy shot doesn't enter their minds. Their solution is not to increase their skills to get closer to their quarry, and to better their marksmanship; perhaps to use a more accurate load, but to go to a much more powerful cartridge. They are in fact, lazy hunters, for it only takes a short time to buy a large caliber rifle with a scope, and to sight it in. Perhaps it takes about a full day to complete that task.

I can tell from your objections that you know full well that it takes much much longer than that to learn the woods, and the game animal, and then hone the skills to get close enough for a proper shot.

Sometimes out here the folks who have been told this erroneous caliber information transition into black powder, and the question starts again. I mean if you have been told a .270 Winchester won't take an eastern whitetail and ya should be using at least a .338 Winchester or a .35 Whelen, then it's natural that when looking at a .45 - .50 caliber round ball rifle you might ask the question "is this big enough?".

Hence the answer, "It will do it's part if you do yours"..., which means as I wrote above, developing the knowledge and skills and judgement to get close enough to the animal, and then to place a lethal, humane shot into the animal.

A close coworker recently experienced this several weeks ago in a muzzleloading season. It was his first time with a traditional rifle. However, he went out with a group, who literally laughed at him for using a Lyman GPR in .54 flintlock, a patched round ball, and 90 grains of 2Fg. He wasn't using a scoped rifle, launching a sabot slug with 150 grains of Pyrodex, so he was told he couldn't possibly expect to down a deer, and..., if he did manage to hit one he was on his own tracking it down for a second shot, and perhaps more, were bound to be needed.

At sixty yards he downed a nice fat doe which went about 20 yards in the snow before falling over. His hunting friends were astounded. Did they change their tune? NOPE, they simply think him lucky.

Anecdotal as the last two paragraphs are, I provided them as an illustration of a situation out here that is all too common. So you hear the phrase that started the thread. A longer version of it might be clearer, "The rifle with an accurate load of proper power will humanely harvest a deer, but you will have to do more than simply shoot it a few times to sight it in, to ensure when you fire you hit the animal in a humanely lethal spot."

I hope this clears up the confusion.

LD
 
Loyalist Dave, having hunted from coast to coast I can assure you the idea of bigger is better is not limited to the east coast. This problem permeates all areas of the sport of hunting today, the manure that's launched across the TV and internet these days to elicit money is appalling! The good news is there are those who will learn from their mistakes and improve there skills, but unfortunately we will always have the boobs who give our sport a black eye! As far as your work buddy goes, I'm sure most of the chiding was just good natured ribbing and I can assure you he opened some eyes that day! :v
 
I just can't resist this... Forgive me, O, gods of the hunt.
I want to defend the person who has shot running game. I, too, have shot mule deer bounding across the ravine, pronghorn running full-tilt perpendicular to me (through the neck-twice) and a cow elk doing the same at under 100 yards. But not with a ml. :(
 
I think many of us have shot running game. I know I have, but I believe all us would (or should) be able to say we were confident and sure of our shot when we pulled the trigger, not that we took a chance and hoped the size of the bullet somehow compensated for any error on our part.
 
My uncle was a little boy in the 30's, he used a .22 to feed his own family and a neighbour family with grouse at age 8. He had a natural ability with a rifle and routinely rolled running coyotes at ranges out to 400 yds. even in his old age. I never knew him to practise and I ever knew him to miss, if he fired his rifle, something died! There is a video of a German hunter shooting running wild boars on youtube that you have to see to believe!
 
War Hawk said:
My uncle was a little boy in the 30's, he used a .22 to feed his own family and a neighbour family with grouse at age 8. He had a natural ability with a rifle and routinely rolled running coyotes at ranges out to 400 yds. even in his old age. I never knew him to practise and I ever knew him to miss, if he fired his rifle, something died! There is a video of a German hunter shooting running wild boars on youtube that you have to see to believe!

Gut shot critters seldom "die" when hit and oft times dont leave a blood trail either. So meny of these "larger then life" 'doin thier part' characters dont always add up the carcuses never retrieved. And quit honestly no one was counting in the 30's and no one cares about the varmint today but winging them out there at running deer 400 yards out is a poor way to respect a game animal that you have a good probablility of gut shooting and not finding.
 
Sorry Wattsy, but that don't float with me...using the sanctity of game to make a philosophical point about wounded game that only exist in your mind...really....I have made some great shots on game, large and small while running with gun and bow...have seen many others do the same....some people are just better shots than others on moving game...I guess it comes down to a man has got to know his limitations, you have yours...please don't inflict your limitations upon me! :nono:
 
Also there is a learned skill called tracking. Every hunter wounds game.I dont care if a person is a world class marksman, It happens. Having the skill to find game is a neccesary skill to have. And i feel that no hunter can call him or herself one unless you are skilled in such. Its not a perfect world.
 
Yup!

The very first deer I killed when I was a young teenager was a really bad shot. I barely gut shot it. My dad used that as a great opportunity to teach me sveral things. We stayed with it and finally found that deer after a long, miserable at times track.

For a while back then my cousin and I were getting pretty dang good at tracking wounded deer for the guys around the camp. Now that I think about it, there were some lousy shots around that fire!! LOL!
 
Shine said:
Also there is a learned skill called tracking. Every hunter wounds game.I dont care if a person is a world class marksman, It happens. Having the skill to find game is a neccesary skill to have. And i feel that no hunter can call him or herself one unless you are skilled in such. Its not a perfect world.

Agreed, but this falls under "doing your part" at least for me. I think the entire thread was started due to a misunderstanding on what "doing your part" means from one person to the next.
 
My only statement to this original post is the following! There are a lot more shooters out there than hunters.

To me hunting is all about the right shot. I was taught if the shot ain't there pass it up. I don't care what the reason! Whether you be bird hunting and Dick Cheny is in the way or you are big game hunting and the animal has bolted and run, or the squirrel is not exposed enough, etc, etc.

You must know your gun's capabilities as well as your own, and the decision to make the shot has to be based on that!
Having said that we all sometimes make a bad shot. So you must make the best shot that you can possibly make under any circumstances!

Now as too caliber I prefer certain calibers for certain game but yes I have seen large game animals shot with a small caliber and a well placed shot. I have also seen big game tore up only to go off and die because the shooter thought his cannon would do what his poor shot placement and judgement couldn't!

The game is not suppose to cooperate with you, they are not out there to do their part. You are out there to do your part!

As far as I am concerned it is those "shooters" who give all "hunters" a bad name.
Now I am out of steam so the debate can continue from here!!!!!!!!!
 
FWIW, I've killed at least two running deer with muzzleloaders and several more that were simply walking. It was one shot each and I had no doubt I would connect each and every time. I've turned down a few others.
 
Kodiak13 said:
Sorry Wattsy, but that don't float with me...using the sanctity of game to make a philosophical point about wounded game that only exist in your mind...really....I have made some great shots on game, large and small while running with gun and bow...have seen many others do the same....some people are just better shots than others on moving game...I guess it comes down to a man has got to know his limitations, you have yours...please don't inflict your limitations upon me! :nono:

:slap: EVERY hunter makes a great shot on accasion (there is a whole thread on here about "Increadble shots") But those who have hunted long have also made a bad shot or two as well; Those who say they have not are full of :bull: or hunt very little.
The point is limiting the bad shots by NOT doing stupid things like shooting at running deer 400 yards out.
You dont have to be the head cashier at WalMart to know that you can NOT duplicate a great ethical shot at the deer running out there 400 yards away 25 out of 25 times.
You are correct, you set your own limitations Im just hope people are smart enough to realize what those limitations are.
 

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