Doc Help: Landsknecht Matchlock Pistol?

[Karl Helweg]

Among other things your link included another Landsknecht officer with a pistol (the lock is not really shown). http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=85396&stc=1
I agree that these short carbines sort of merged into large pistols with no real distinctions since they did not suffer from modern anti-gun laws.

 

[john wilson]

Hmm, yeah! smoothbore too,... double whammy! :slap:

 

[john wilson]

and the dudes in the mediaeval photo... Not one of 'em under fifty...those guys really knew how to plan for their retirement! :grin:

 

[Karl Helweg]

and the dudes in the mediaeval photo... Not one of 'em under fifty...those guys really knew how to plan for their retirement! :grin:

Not quite as many had to worry about the burden of retirement. The Empire sort of offered a form of retirement in that only retired Dopplesoldners had permission to teach civilians to sword fight. Imagine if only veterans could teach martial arts. The training would be more expensive but much, much better than most of the so called martial arts teachers. Eventually teaching sword fighting turned into a chartered guild: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brotherhood_of_St._Mark

 

[john wilson]

I am definitely going to get me a pair of those trousers.

 

[Karl Helweg]

I am definitely going to get me a pair of those trousers.

This fellow can probably help you out with the trousers: http://www.tgertoggs.com/

 

[john wilson]

I think you take my attempts at humour too literally,besides I already went through that phase with the 'New Romantics' in the 80's when I had hair and a pointy guitar. I looked pretty stupid.....but so did everybody else so I claim peer pressure as my defense. Anyway Zonie will be having a fit because I promised I wouldn't mention guitars or cars and I just have. So,... talking about matchlock pistols,.. I had an email from the RA today, they say they're pretty sure the lock is English as there are distinct differences with the German/Swedish lock and the 'so called 1690 pattern English' so it looks like I've gone full circle, English>American>German>English again, starting to get dizzy!

 

[robinghewitt]

Calm down JCW you are starting to blather. Probably just a bit of stage fright from those 2000 views. Deep breath, pull yourself together, don't go native on us, forget the Alamo, remember Mafeking.

 

[john wilson]

Yes,running on empty now,only know so much matchspeak,already suffered half of one posting mysteriously disappearing due to running off at the mouth or running off of the subject (at least I think that's what happened). Have a rest, that's the thing to do until I've got something constructive and relevant to add. Forget the fame,it's a fickle mistress,up one minute,down the next. :dead: :grin:

 

[robinghewitt]

If you want something to talk about, you could ask me what is wrong with your pistol :rotf:

 

[john wilson]

Which is why I'm here.. looking for someone who knows. It's easy enough to find opinions, I've got some of my own, but I don't know whether they're right or not,what I want is proof,Go ahead,shoot. :hatsoff:

 

[john wilson]

You missed your cue, you were supposed to put your best wild eyed Jack Nicholson face on and shout "Proof! You want proof!? You can't handle the proof!" :cursing:
Got to keep this thing going somehow if I wanna hit three thousand. Where's Alden when you need him? :idunno:

 

[ChrisPer]

You missed your cue, you were supposed to put your best wild eyed Jack Nicholson face on and shout "Proof! You want proof!? You can't handle the proof!" :cursing:
:idunno:

:rotf:

 

[robinghewitt]

You missed your cue

The pause isn't for dramatic effect, it is while I try to find the little black box that charges my camera battery.

 

[john wilson]

Funny you should mention that. I've also got that problem, dodgy batteries, so I've bought a new camera! Supposed to be arriving today and it's a proper thing with whopping telephoto lens,viewfinder,fourteen megawotsits AND it runs on AA batteries. £74 eBay (well Argos actually). Sorted! And yes Zonie I am going to be using it exclusively for taking photos of matchlocks :grin: Talking about which,I managed to get in touch with the guy with the lock collection,he says the spring may well be an historic replacement so could well be berrylium alloy as Tinker 2 suggested (thanks :bow: ) He said the pin may also be a historic repair (he also used the word crude,but he is German so I'll put it down to an error in translation). So things are looking promising as far as the legitimacy of the lock. What I need to do is look at the stock in isolation,a good start would be to determine what wood it is,any ideas how I might go about doing that? It's sort of reddy brown and it's made of wood......that's about as far as I've got. :shocked2:

 

[john wilson]

Just a thought, a couple of people have mentioned the trigger so I've been looking around trying to find things similar. Again I think it's a question of ergonomics,what works in that particular stock/lock combination,rear curving triggers which you see a lot in early matchlocks appear to me to have a function which is to elongate the pivot. So,crossbow trigger transfers to musket,problems with snagging which is a serious with match cords,result is a guard which necessitates a shorter lever etc etc. So it leads to a trigger style which rearsets the action and allows the hand a comfortable position at the wrist.With later designs of lock the plate is much shorter allowing the trigger to sit directly below thus allowing the trigger to be shorter and more functional,in this case utilitarian, so gone are the curly bits. Eventually of course morphing into the setup we recognise today (which even as we speak is still evolving) I found a pic of a doglock with a similar style trigger to the one fitted in the pistol stock. So the trigger is a consideration, but I don't think it should be given too much emphasis just yet.

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[RAEDWALD]

Just my observation but, if the Indians and Japanese made matchlock pistols as they most assuredly did, then there must have been a role for them and late medieval/early modern Europeans were no less able nor inventive so I can see no reason at all that european matchlock pistols cannot exist.

Re the putative european matchlock pistol pictured in the early pages, two thoughts come to my (limited!) mind.

The first is to wonder of this is a genuine old flintlock that had the lock removed or damaged and it was replaced by a matchlock as making a new flintlock was a step too far for the maker. It has the grace and heft of a 17th century horse pistol.

However, and again just a limited value opinion, the dings in the woodwork remind me of artificial aging whereby it has been hit with the same tool deliberately. In normal aging the dings differ according to their respective ages and varied causes. The metalwork has an early 19th century air to it but it is a lovely piece and it makes me wonder about converting a reproduction 17th century horse pistol in a similar manner.

 

[john wilson]

Hi Raedwald, welcome to the party . I agree with what you say about the possibility of there being matchlock pistols in Europe. I mean when you think logically someone in Europe (and it's a big place) must have thought at some time that it was a good idea,obviously as these things go, it didn't catch on in the same way that it did in Asia,but I personally think it's more of a probability than a possibility. Problem is of course other than one or two oddballs that have been saved more or less due to their curiosity value or quality of craftsmanship none appear to have survived. But I made the same point about the English longbow,none of those survived either,it took the raising of the Mary Rose to find one. Probably I suspect due to their utilitarian nature, they were just cast aside when more modern arms which were easier to use came along.They weren't looked upon as anything special,just six foot long bits of wood that only specially trained gorillas could bend.Question here though is what would one look like? (pistol I mean)as there aren't any pics,writings,surviving examples etc.? There are several attempts at re-creations,most have crossbow style triggers,are ball butted,some are very fanciful and ornate. Here we have something entirely different and I personally think more credible. If you were to analyse it in isolation you have what appears to be a doglock style pistol of around the late 17th/early 18th cent and a late English pattern matchlock of the same period. Individually there isn't much arguement, the problem arises when you put the two together. I can't comment on the damage to the woodwork, whether it's been artificially aged or not but what I can almost categorically state is that it isn't a retro fitted lock. Dog locks and flintlocks have a third screw to brace the cock (it's quite a heavy spring in there) if you study the photo provided you'll see only two (as in a matchlock)and no evidence of any tampering to the stock whatsoever. It was definately built to house this lock,question is when??? Thanks for your input, John.

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[john wilson]

Just thought,if you skip back to page 5 of this thread you'll see a pic which I posted showing the detail of the lock inletting, from this it's also pretty evident that it was never intended to be anything other than it is,flintlocks are a completely different thing mechanically speaking,the inletting would have to be butchered to change it either way. That's not to say it wasn't done though. My belief is that this pattern lock adopts the shape of the flintlock plate so the weapon can be easily upgraded when circumstances allowed. Common practice,keep costs to a minimum,use what you can. A second thought occurs, if the pistol were kept in close proximity to another object, say a sword and carried,would that not create the pattern damage you suggest? same 'tool' repeatedly used?
Also(I'm thinking a lot today the word 'putative'? The dictionary definition is something,supposed,reputed,or claimed with lack of evidence. I'm not claiming anything,I'm trying through a logical thought process with a little help where I can find it to establish the possibility that this thing is what it appears to me to be. The putative position is the one that claims such a thing never existed, there is no evidence to support such a claim. Thanks again, John.

 

[john wilson]

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Think this harks back to what you were saying regarding the spring being above being a good idea. Must admit it was one of the things that concerned me with my own lock (the positioning of the spring) as I hadn't seen any similar examples. This seems to put that particular niggle to bed, French around the turn of the 17th, seems they'd worked that one out for themselves. :thumbsup: