Does HC really matter?

[ratfacedmcdougal]

I read on this forum and others how a Siler lock on a Southern Mt rifle is So Un-HC. Does it really matter to most folks? My So.Mt. is a gorgeous Iron mounted, birdseye, 13/16th x 42"straight oct..45 barrel(is the barrel un-hc also?) and very daintily built, LH Chambers' Large Siler flint lock. Maybe if Chambers built another in LH we would have gone different, I doubt it though. The Whole HC thing doesn't matter to me. I wanted and got the look of a So. Mt.and am quite proud of it and of the builder.

At the moment I have a N.E. Fowling gun being built and again with the same lock. And again HC doesn't matter. I know it will be a thing of great beauty and the lock style won't distract from that beauty.

What I want in a lock is reliability, and ease of replacement parts and a great guarantee. So Chambers' Siler it is.
Cheers
RFMcD

 

[Rifleman1776]

The quest for historical correctness is a matter of personal preference. Also the source of much cussin' and discussin'. Matter of perspective. Mostly this is a do yer own thang game. Ye like, ye go fer it.

 

[Zonie]

If you write that HC (Historically Correct) doesn't matter to you, you've answered your own question. To you, it means nothing.

Does it matter to "most folks"? Probably not.

Most folks don't know the difference between a Pennsylvania/Kentucky rifle and a Southern/Tennessee rifle.

IMO, most folks which includes the entire population of the country don't know the difference between a Musket and a Rifle either.

Some folks want a gun that loosely fits into a wide time period, say flintlock or percussion.

They are not interested in re-enacting so Historically Correct or PC (Period Correct) doesn't mean a lot to them.
They constitute the largest share of muzzleloader shooters.

Then there is the group that likes to see recreations that are accurate, regardless of the time period or its historical importance.
They are probably the ones most likely to start pointing out errors on a particular gun. For instance a Germanic lock (like a Siler) on a Southern or New England gun.

Others enjoy recreating more specific periods of time. At this level, Historically Correct starts to be very important. After all, they are interested in what was available and used in that time period.
A percussion rifle during the Revolutionary War wouldn't be correct because the percussion cap wasn't invented at that time and it wasn't widely used until after 1820.

 

[Claude Mathis]

...The Whole HC thing doesn't matter to me....

... And again HC doesn't matter.

I think you made your point. :wink:

 

[galamb]

I just see what you are saying as a contradiction.

If HC is not important to you at all then why even refer to your guns as Southern Mountain and N.E. Fowler.

If they do not attempt to follow the originals that those names refer to then why not just call them a flint or percussion "rifle" and a "shotgun".

I do agree that you as the owner are the only one who has to decide "how correct" your own guns/rifles are and if you truly don't care then you shouldn't even care what someone else may say.

But on the other hand, if you are going to call a rifle a (whatever) and it didn't follow the original you are calling it, you have to expect that someone may come along and point out the inaccuracies in it - and if that bothers you, despite what you say, that would indicate that you "do care".

 

[Orthod]

Back in the 80's when I toured with a metal band only once or twice did somebody come up to me and say that I played a song wrong. Most people could not tell if it was right or wrong, just if it sounded good or bad. The same thing with muzzle loaders. For most people anything with a side lock is an old gun. Just look at what is being sold on the auction sites. My Poorboy has one thing glaring historically incorrect. Only one person noticed it, so far, and that was on the day I received it.

I am concerned about my perception of the firearm and not others perception. Now for those that are concern for historical correctness down to the smallest detail, Thank You! You keep history alive. :hatsoff:

 

[galamb]

The OP states he is having a fowler built and goes on to say lock reliability and replacement parts trumps HC - fair statement.

But, according to Jim Chambers himself his Late Ketland is superior to the Siler, used Siler "guts" (however, the new version has a reworked, "more correct" hammer and an optional spring) AND would be "correct" on a fowler.

So why not opt for, not only a "superior" lock, but also one that is "more correct" for the gun that it's being put on.

It's one thing if you are buying a rifle/gun "off the shelf", but if you are having a custom build why not make it HC as well if it will not cost any more and the parts are of equal/better quality?

Plus, unless you plan on keeping the gun for your entire life, a "correct" custom build will have a wider market and higher resale value than one that is not.

 

[frogwalking]

I guess the real answer to your question is that there was a reason the old guns were made the way they were. The end result was generally a gun of considerable beauty and grace, as well as function. I am sure that one could find an original southern gun with a German lock, as well as a northern one with an English lock. Most were the other way around because most English gunsmiths migrated to the south, but I wager, not all. I think deviating from the old ways is fine, but one is best served by understanding why they did what they did before you do it differently. For instance: I found out why many of the old rifles had the front lock screw installed crooked when I put one in straight, straight through the ramrod hole.

 

[Ken Cormier]

In the case of having a rifle built why would not have the hc/pc correct stuff used. Unless your having a hunting /Brush gun made. The first two guns I had made have Silers on them. Both built on a southern Mr style. If I had to do it again they would be done RIGHT. But I do like the locks on them.

 

[stinkyfeet]

There will be some jacka$$ that might tell ya your gun is built wrong but 99% of everyone else appreciates a well made gun HC/PC or not good work is good work.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

"Wrong" or "not PC" as well as "not HC" are relative terms.

If you are going muzzleloader hunting..., in that context your rifle is as "right" as mine, so is your smoothbore. :grin:

If you're demonstrating to folks how a flintlock works, and the differences between a rifle and a smoothbore..., again all is correct.

If somebody is looking to duplicate a firearm from a specific region and a specific time..., THEN you get into the debates...that's all. In fact your smoothbore is probably closer to what they looked like "back then" than is mine if we compared them.

A lot has to do with the aesthetics..., the experience that one is trying to foster. IF you want to really experience what the British Infantryman had to contend with on daily basis from 1750-1770, then you need to lug around a Long Land Pattern Bess...at least for the weight, and for the polishing. :shocked2:

If you're not into that..., 's no big deal. I don't have to sleep in the rain under a wool blanket all the time to know what it's like...already done it... it was my first full-time job. :haha: I don't expect others to do it. I don't think any "less" of those who have no wish to actually experience some of the stuff. I don't need to spend days in snow with my feet wrapped in rags to know the Continentals really suffered in Winter.


LD

 

[scotsman]

I could not agree more with this and your former post. And how "HC" a gun is really depends on to what degree it might matter to the owner. Personally, I now like my guns to be obviously representative of a period and "style". I like to be able to point to an example discussed by George Shumway,for example,and recognize my gun. For me, at the moment, I guess mostly HC, or strongly "evocative of" is more than good enough. cheers

 

[MSW]

LoyalistDave makes a good point. after all is said and done, you're the one shooting it. while I appreciate the work and enthusiasm of the hc/pc folks, I don't feel the need to follow their band.

good luck with your new gun, and

make good smoke!

 

[crockett]

I think it is really two different issues. The area of muzzle loaders can be split along HC and Non-HC lines. Hershel House, I don't think a lot of his rifles are HC, they are his own creation. In the mountains of E. Tennessee, etc., the muzzle loading rifle never died out, there were always a few being made. No one can argue that some of the contemporary muzzle loaders are not works of art.
Then there is the historical aspect, not just the rifle but everything else, all the accoutrements, clothes, etc. The folks interested in that aspect do an incredible amount of historical research, trying to rediscover a past that almost got lost. Once again, an admirable understanding.
I like history so I'm naturally into the HC thing. I have made all sorts of equipment I thought was HC and then learned even more details that made my gear a little off, still, I find it fascinating.
So; two different aspects, both good in their own respects.

 

[Vaino]

I sympathize w/ you in having a limited choice of LHed locks. I've only built 2 LHed guns for customers and w/ both, the locks were HC.....don't think I'd take a build if the customer insisted on a non-HC lock....but, that's just me.

HC isn't a relative term as it pertains to specifcally styled guns and it may well be "relative" in the minds of some.....but that doesn't make it "right".

Sold 2 Bucks County LRs to 2 different customers and after they both rec'd them, both called me as to how they could open the Pbox. I told them to press the end of the toeplate and it would pop open. The next questions from both were, if it was "my invention" and it was pretty neat. This type of Pbox release is found on most original BC LRs....but the 2 customers were quite unaware of this. Kinda made me wonder if building HC LRs was really worth the trouble.

As has been said many times on this "Forum"....it's your gun so build it the way you want to. I don't agree w/ that, but what the hey.....Fred

 

[galamb]

If anyone is in the "camp" of not HC/PC I really see nothing wrong with that - as stated, your rifle, your choice and I wouldn't judge that rifle unless specifically asked.

But if you are of that opinion then why even ask? Looking for reinforcement of your view?

Again, I look to "resale" value. If you are talking about a used T/C, Lyman etc you often see that one was picked up for $300 or so.

When you are talking about a "custom" job your market has shrunk significantly. Now you might be looking to get somewhat over 1000 bucks for a rifle that may have cost you 2K or more.

And if someone is going to chuck that for a rifle they ARE going to be looking for "mostly correct" to "almost entirely correct". Otherwise they could obtain a brand new "semi-custom" for the same money.

That would be my consideration and advice if you are having one made. Unless making it HC/PC is going to add significant cost to the build, why not do it correctly.

The difference in cost for the "box of parts" between a straight barreled flintlock (with an inappropriate lock) and one with a swamped barrel and an appropriate lock is usually less than 100 bucks.

And when that box of parts is running 700-800 bucks anyhow why start out "devaluing" the rifle before it's built?

Just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[ratfacedmcdougal]

When we first started talking about my first rifle it was to be a .40 with a swamped barrel, but along came this straight .45 for a quite low price of $50. Made that decision easy. The lock was discussed only briefly. The LH issue and wanting a Chambers left me with one option. Same with the fowling gun. I got a great deal on a Colerain Griffon for $150, Same problem concerning the lock. I could have used another company but prefer to stick with tried and true and not have the potential problems that I read about in all the other companies. Very, Very rarely do I read of problems with a Chambers. These guns will probably be sold when I gone so the return won't matter to me or whoever is doing the selling. Whoever buys them will be getting very fine long guns that work and look proper if you squint when looking at the locks.
I love the whole flintlock shooting thing, I like to think that I'm getting a good connection with our past when shooting it. The fun of shooting with others. The planning and gathering parts for the builds. Spending time with the builder in an experience of it's own. I wish I had more $ so I could have him build more, but I'm a poor boat painter with shallow pockets.

Thank you all for the replies. I think I get the idea of the importance of HC and admire those who adhere to it. This sport sure is fun.
Cheers
RFMcD

 

[Pete G]

I don't understand. If historical correctness does not matter, then why fool with a flintlock at all? Get a good 30-06 and be done with it.

 

[Many Klatch]

HC matters to me but I won't say anything to you if you are shooting on the line next me with a TC and wearing fringed buckskins. However, if you ask me about HC I will be glad to talk your ears off, but only if you ask. We are all in this for our own enjoyment. It's no fun to have to listen to some self-appointed expert tell you how "wrong" your gear is. If you decide to get your gear into a more HC condition there are many of us here who will be glad to help. If you don't and you are still shooting something that loads from the front with a side hammer then good on ya.

Many Klatch

 

[jerrywh]

I only matters if you care what other people think.