Does lead really wear out rifling by it's passage?

[LongWalker]

When shooting patched round ball in a Bess, after about 7000-8000 rounds the bore was eroded enough at the breech that I could either move the patched ball forward (through the use of wads on top of the powder, followed by the patched round ball), deal with torn patches (and gas cutting, and leading of the barrel), or rebarrel. I've seen similar problems in a breech section Curly Gustomski had, and in my own 24 gauge barrel (one of Curly's). My old 11 gauge double has a similar problem, but who knows how many rounds it has seen in the past 150 years.

You'll see a similar thing in rifle barrels, if shot enough (most don't get shot that much, or succumb to neglect before anyone notices). The Dickert I borrowed for some tests a while back had been shortened about 3/4" at the breech when it was converted to percussion. Then it was shot enough the breech end of the barrel was slightly oversized and roughened. Fortunately, the load I was using was enough to move the ball forward of the eroded area, so it didn't affect my tests.

Years ago I re-barreled a target rifle for one of my childhood mentor's grandkids: the erosion at the breech on that one had roughened up the back 2" of the bore. The muzzle was worn from the guide used on the loading rod (stainless steel rod--from Uncle Mike IIRC) and the bore that had originally slugged at .443" was now at .4458-ish inches at the smallest. Viewed through a bore scope the corners of the lands were rounded, particularly back by the breech.

That was one of Bill Large's barrels, and had been sent back to be freshened twice that I recall. Mr. Large died about the same time my old friend had to give up on shooting, so it never made another trip back. I'd have to dig around to see if I still have my notes, but as I recall he had ~12k rounds through it. I replaced it with a Green Mountain barrel, from what little I've seen they seem to take longer to get breech erosion. (Wow, it just hit me. . . at current prices, he'd have to spend >$1500 on the caps alone to shoot that much!)

 

[Stantheman86]

When shooting patched round ball in a Bess, after about 7000-8000 rounds the bore was eroded enough at the breech that I could either move the patched ball forward (through the use of wads on top of the powder, followed by the patched round ball), deal with torn patches (and gas cutting, and leading of the barrel), or rebarrel. I've seen similar problems in a breech section Curly Gustomski had, and in my own 24 gauge barrel (one of Curly's). My old 11 gauge double has a similar problem, but who knows how many rounds it has seen in the past 150 years.

You'll see a similar thing in rifle barrels, if shot enough (most don't get shot that much, or succumb to neglect before anyone notices). The Dickert I borrowed for some tests a while back had been shortened about 3/4" at the breech when it was converted to percussion. Then it was shot enough the breech end of the barrel was slightly oversized and roughened. Fortunately, the load I was using was enough to move the ball forward of the eroded area, so it didn't affect my tests.

Years ago I re-barreled a target rifle for one of my childhood mentor's grandkids: the erosion at the breech on that one had roughened up the back 2" of the bore. The muzzle was worn from the guide used on the loading rod (stainless steel rod--from Uncle Mike IIRC) and the bore that had originally slugged at .443" was now at .4458-ish inches at the smallest. Viewed through a bore scope the corners of the lands were rounded, particularly back by the breech.

That was one of Bill Large's barrels, and had been sent back to be freshened twice that I recall. Mr. Large died about the same time my old friend had to give up on shooting, so it never made another trip back. I'd have to dig around to see if I still have my notes, but as I recall he had ~12k rounds through it. I replaced it with a Green Mountain barrel, from what little I've seen they seem to take longer to get breech erosion. (Wow, it just hit me. . . at current prices, he'd have to spend >$1500 on the caps alone to shoot that much!)

If I can find enough time and $$ to put any measurable amount of wear on a barrel I'll be proud of myself

 

[fromrusk]

My experience has been that lead does not harm rifling at all, BUT, without proper bullet lubrication,
lead will adhere to the inside of the barrel. I've seen some barrels that almost look like a smoothbore because of leading.

 

[Dale Allen Raby]

Short answer "no". Long answer is that nothing lasts forever and rifle barrels wear out eventually, though mostly from corrosion and/or gas cutting.

 

[chorizo]

Short answer "no". Long answer is that nothing lasts forever and rifle barrels wear out eventually, though mostly from corrosion and/or gas cutting.

and add, "poor maintenance practices"

 

[Bad Karma]

Let's not conflate modern smokeless guns with throats with black powder muzzleloaders. Guns can be "shot out" via a variety of ways. Super hot load gasses eroding the throat and the bore is the greatest contributor. Much faster velocities on the bullets with much faster twist rates wearing out the lands, poor cleaning of the bore and the ever present wear on the crown at the muzzle.

The things in common that ML have with modern guns is poor cleaning practices corroding the bore (much more of an issue with ML as the powder is more corrosive) and the destruction of the crown at the muzzle.

The life of a modern smokeless rifle used in competition long range high performance are around 2000 rounds with sub MOA requirements to hunting 308 guns 5,000 to 7,000 with 2" moa expectations. This is assuming proper care.

I would expect our ML, with the modern steel, proper cleaning methods, not near as "hot" of loads and REDUCED expectation on accuracy to last 10's of thousands.

However, I have seen more modern rifles ruined by piss poor cleaning practices than I have ever seen by shooting.

https://www.rifletalks.com/equipment-reviews/rifles/rifle-barrel-life/

Some years ago, Ross Seyfried had a 6mm/.378 rifle built. I’m working from memory here but the gist was that he wanted 4100 fps from the 85 grain Barnes bullet. He got it and killed an antelope with it. He had some 40 handloads for the rifle and erosion was so extreme he suspected it would need to be set back and rechambered around that mark.
Ive never seen erosion from blackpowder except gas cutting on revolver arbors and top straps with heavy bullets and loads.

 

[DuncNZ]

I can only observe that rocks are smoothed by the water in flowing water. However I really doubt the passage of lead through your barrel will have any noticeable effect in your lifetime. Regardless of how many times you fired in a day, nor for how many days. I might think patching could wear it faster, but again not to any great effect.

Most streams and rivers have some suspended mud or sand or other rocks to tumble on and wear away sharp edged rocks, Water has very dilute amounts of carbonic acid where it has reacted with carbon dioxide , it is this very dilute carbonic acid which dissolves limestone producing caves with stalagmites and stalactites

 

[William Lincoln]

After a zillion shots the profile is smoothed and lowered
very slightly. Also depends upon the grade of steel used.

 

[ADK Bigfoot]

i have had a few muzzle loading rifles with poor bores (investarms), and found that shooting 100+ patched rbs would smooth the bore, but removing burrs is not the same as wearing out a barrel. I have a .50 cal TVM Early Virginia that I have shot thousands of rounds of patched round balls, well lubricated, with no discernible wear and no deterioration of accuracy.

ADK Bigfoot

 

[Jason holgate]

Great post

 

[Bad Karma]

Most streams and rivers have some suspended mud or sand or other rocks to tumble on and wear away sharp edged rocks, Water has very dilute amounts of carbonic acid where it has reacted with carbon dioxide , it is this very dilute carbonic acid which dissolves limestone producing caves with stalagmites and stalactites

Exactly. Our barrels are like the Grand Canyon or Antelope Canyon…

after billions and billions of shots.

 

[M. De Land]

I can only observe that rocks are smoothed by the water in flowing water. However I really doubt the passage of lead through your barrel will have any noticeable effect in your lifetime. Regardless of how many times you fired in a day, nor for how many days. I might think patching could wear it faster, but again not to any great effect.

Giving that idea some thought my guess is that water is not really the main eroding factor in rock but rather water is the carrier of particles of sand and other hard debris that actually cause the erosion.
In powder burn action I know of three erosive agents to barrel steel, heat, pressure and as yet un-burned grains of smokeless powder under high pressure before ignition, further up bore.
Black powder grains, before they ignite, do not seem to have much if any erosive effect in the breech area from what I can observe in many re-barreled rifles and hand guns.
This is because the pressure and heat of black powder burn is far less than nitrocellulose (smokeless) powders.

 

[2 shots]

No, lead was added to prevent knocking (pre-ignition) by increasing the octane rating.

lead was a valve lubricant. to run unleaded in an classic car you need to add a lead additive OR have the exhaust valve seats changed to hardened seats or you will have issues if you run it a lot

 

[senseisugarbear]

In my experience, Leading is caused by trying to move a lead bullet forward faster than it can be engaged by the rifling of the barrel . Overloading to increase Velocity will negate accuracy. this is why Jacketed bullets can be loaded to higher speeds than lead. Black Powder and Smokeless powder are 2 Entirely differently and Critters.The power and Pressure curves Could't be more Different. This is why OUR B/P Have that Oh so elusive SWEET SPOT that is the optimum combination of speed & Accuracy. Once found Our pet shooter becomes a tack driver , that will shoot BETTER than Most SHOOTERS can. ....Be Safe>>>>>>>>>Wally

 

[waksupi]

Some years ago, Ross Seyfried had a 6mm/.378 rifle built. I’m working from memory here but the gist was that he wanted 4100 fps from the 85 grain Barnes bullet. He got it and killed an antelope with it. He had some 40 handloads for the rifle and erosion was so extreme he suspected it would need to be set back and rechambered around that mark.
Ive never seen erosion from blackpowder except gas cutting on revolver arbors and top straps with heavy bullets and loads.

Our company president had a 6.5 x .284 that would shoot under 1 1/2" at 500 yards. After 500 rounds, the throat was burned out for 7" up the bore.
I have bolt action and BPCR's that have had thousands of rounds of cast lead bullets through them, with no erosion at all.
As has been said, poor cleaning practices are the big enemy to barrel life.

 

[bronko220002]

I seriously doubt that lead would have any effect on a barrel. I could see some erosion in the breech area from hat gases but not the bore. My belief what the old timers were seeing was a constant build up of lead in the rifling making it look like the bore "smoothed" out. But to do that would take a lot of shooting. Not sure if they had brass or bronze brushes to scrub the bores not the knowledge to use a lead removing solvent.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

I seriously doubt that lead would have any effect on a barrel. I could see some erosion in the breech area from hat gases but not the bore. My belief what the old timers were seeing was a constant build up of lead in the rifling making it look like the bore "smoothed" out. But to do that would take a lot of shooting. Not sure if they had brass or bronze brushes to scrub the bores not the knowledge to use a lead removing solvent.

Old timers didn't fool with bore brushes: they used mercury to remove leading, and it worked very well

 

[Urban Coyote]

Shucks, a lot of scientific looking stuff here all abouts this lead wearing out steel. Lots of experiences and observations. I reckon after 45 plus years of sending patches round balls out of steel barrels, many having fired several thousand loads, I haven't worn one out yet, nor do I expect to in whatever time I have left. I can't explain to you why but my barrel steel seems to hold up fine. I expect keeping them properly cleaned and stored is of greater concern to me.

The automotive lessons on leaded fuel was pretty cool too.

All good!

 

[William Sublette]

Old timers didn't fool with bore brushes: they used mercury to remove leading, and it worked very well

How did that work?


Did it turn them into mad hatters?

 

[TDM]

How did that work?


Did it turn them into mad hatters?

I've never used mecury for anything and I'm still a mad hatter.