Does lead really wear out rifling by it's passage?

[TDM]

I think the main thing is to use a muzzle protector that keeps what ever rod that is being used centered and off the crown during loading. These can be used very easily with the wood loading rods as well as metal range rods while hunting. Just keep one in your loading pouch like all the other stuff needed.

Yes, I have muzzle cones on my SS range rods. Important to use with any metal rod.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

I often wondered if the indigenous natives of the US ever cleaned their black powder guns. After years of shooting and neglect, rust and crud in the bore, would the gun even be "minute of buffalo?"

They were known for taking absolutely horrid care of their firearms.

 

[64Springer]

No.

 

[Bunk]

I can only observe that rocks are smoothed by the water in flowing water. However I really doubt the passage of lead through your barrel will have any noticeable effect in your lifetime. Regardless of how many times you fired in a day, nor for how many days. I might think patching could wear it faster, but again not to any great effect.

it is not the water it is what the water is carrying. sand, silt all abrasive agents

 

[Bunk]

Yes, I have muzzle cones on my SS range rods. Important to use with any metal rod.

Or use an unmentionable case that fits the bore with a hole bored in the head for the rod. A .45-70 works in my GRR .50. The Sharps and Smith have an open breech.
Bunk

 

[TDM]

That's a very good idea @Bunk. Have to try that.

 

[alcessapiens]

Never use aluminum rods. Guys think “aluminum is softer than steel, what could go wrong “ plenty, that’s what.
Aluminum reacts almost immediately with oxygen (don’t believe it, Take a piece of aluminum and file a nice, smooth bright shiny silver spot on it. Look at it in a day and it’s duller) any aluminum cleaning rod has a nice coating of aluminum oxide that is far harder than steel. It will abrade your rifling and especially the muzzle. If you must use aluminum ( brass or steel is better) Uber a shotgun rod thick enough not to flex in the bore. I have a Springfield spotter that needed a new barrel because the previous owner ( he had it 45 years, and cleaned it religiously) had ground out the muzzle and the midpoint of the barrel as his aluminum rod would flex and contact the rifling halfway between breech and muzzle. Fortunately, I’d picked up a brand new cosmoline covered barrel in the original waxy paper which, when screwed into the action , was miraculously headspaced correctly.
My main rod for muzzleloaders is a m2 browning .50cal armorers cleaning rod. Had to drill it out and tap it 10-32, slip on a muzzle cone and off to the range. Stiff enough not to flex and no steel touches my bore.

 

[Some_Mook]

The automotive lessons on leaded fuel was pretty cool too.

All good!

Take what you learned with a grain of salt. None of the posts were 100% accurate. Octane has nothing to do with the volatility of gasoline. The chemists added tetraethyl lead for the express purpose of raising the octane number of gasoline. It wasn't until the lead was removed that it was discovered that the lead additive had also provided some protection to the valves. Very much a case of 'you don't know what you've got until it is gone'.

volatility, in chemistry, defines how readily a substance will change state from a solid to a liquid or a liquid to a vapor.
octane defines a gasoline blends ability to absorb heat before it ignites. Spark knock occurs when the flame front began by the ignition from the spark plug collides with an opposing flame front that began when the temperature in the cylinder exceeded the point where the as-yet unburned mixture spontaneously ignites.
the 'lead' in the fuel was not added to be a lubricant for the valves. On a molecular level, the lead coated the valve faces and seats which provided a cushioning effect when the valves snapped shut. When the lead was removed, engines suffered from valve seat recession which would eventually cause burnt exhaust valves. One might also remember just how common a 'valve job' was before the 1970's, when manufacturers had to start making better valves and seats. The lead helped, but the reality is that the materials just weren't all that good to begin with.

 

[SwanShot]

It works great. Mercury was also useful to remove rosin from the bore after it was used by an unscrupulous shooter to sabotage the rifle of a fellow competitor.

Simple fill the bore with mercury and let stand a couple of days. All lead has now been assimilated into the mercury. pour the mercury out. All done.
These days if you tried to buy enough mercury to do this you would probably be whisked away to an unnamed location in eastern Europe.

 

[alcessapiens]

Simple fill the bore with mercury and let stand a couple of days. All lead has now been assimilated into the mercury. pour the mercury out. All done.
These days if you tried to buy enough mercury to do this you would probably be whisked away to an unnamed location in eastern Europe.

Simple fill the bore with mercury and let stand a couple of days. All lead has now been assimilated into the mercury. pour the mercury out. All done.
These days if you tried to buy enough mercury to do this you would probably be whisked away to an unnamed location in eastern Europe.

Used to be that you could get old thermostats from heating contractors for just about nothing. There are mercury tilt switches and if you put them in a container and broke them, all the glass and metal bits floated to the top to be picked out with tweezers. Poof! Nearly free mercury. Dangerous stuff though and needs to be handled carefully (if you spill it, it goes everywhere and it’s extremely toxic to most everything.)

Can’t help but think of Mel gibbons line in lethal weapon after the prostitute witness’ house was bombed. He picks up a charred hunk of scrap, supposedly part of the bomb trigger and says “mercury switches…heavy…” or some such nonsense. Great job investigator… you found a thermostat. Hollywood writers should do better research. (Like “wow,a pair of serial upcounters slaved to the phone ringer… call, one ring then hang up, call again, two rings and boom!”) The general public wouldn’t know the difference but to those who do it shows diligence in research. A mercury tilt switch is simple for a trigger, any boob could build it, it’s no indication of professional competence.

 

[LRB]

I can only observe that rocks are smoothed by the water in flowing water. However I really doubt the passage of lead through your barrel will have any noticeable effect in your lifetime. Regardless of how many times you fired in a day, nor for how many days. I might think patching could wear it faster, but again not to any great effect.

Flowing water alone does not smooth rock unless the rock is of a soft nature and even then the water is merely dissolving the natural cement bonding the rocks particles together. Sand, silicon, and other impurities in flowing water is what wears hard rock, but over a very long time. Metals are formed of crystals in an atomic structure and are pretty much immune to pure water.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

Simple fill the bore with mercury and let stand a couple of days. All lead has now been assimilated into the mercury. pour the mercury out. All done.
These days if you tried to buy enough mercury to do this you would probably be whisked away to an unnamed location in eastern Europe.

That's not how it was done..

 

[alcessapiens]

That's not how it was done..

The mercury amalgamates with lead and it will take lead out of a barrel. It won’t combine with iron or steel but you have to be ultra careful to keep all mercury contained.

 

[SwanShot]

That's not how it was done..

Ok, i,m no authority so how was it done. Not challenging, genuinely curious.

 

[LME]

From what I can determine, lead actually reacts in it's passage through a bore more like lubricant than a cutting agent and when lube is added it is even less prone to barrel wear.
Linen (cotton) cloth patching has the effect of smoothing a bore of reaming and rifling abrasions. Paper patching is more abrasive but will work for many thousandsof rounds before accuracy suffers.
It was said in the chunk gun era that target rifles would shoot smooth, meaning the rifling was still sharp but a glaze would form and accuracy would suffer. The remedy was to clean with some vinegar and let stand a bit to rough up the polish or glaze that had formed. My guess is this may have been nothing more than carbon fouling which is often very hard to detect and even harder to remove.
Black powder pressure and temperature while combusting does not seem to erode rifling very much if any as can be seen in the breech area of muzzle loader or cartridge guns.
Having built and serviced many rifles and hand guns for a lot years I have concluded that lead bullets and black powder pressure simply do not wear out barrels but rather loading, wiping between shots and cleaning procedures are the real cause.

I have had rifles and pistols come in that were completely worn out to the extent the extracters couldn't be repaired and could only be shot single shot. The barrel was still shooting accurate? I don't think lead wears out barrels as fast as the actions fail.

 

[yonderin]

Lots of lessons on erosion, smoothing of rocks in flowing water. I'm educated now.

Point was supposed to be that your barrel is worn by repeated passage of projectiles through it.

I'll have to be more careful about what and how I present my thoughts.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

I have a 1949 built 1894 Winchester that the lands are still sharp.
The kid I got it from said his grand dad only shot home made thru it since it was new.
Ive only shot Ranch Dogs thru it, they still sharp.

 

[Uncle Miltie]

Ok, i,m no authority so how was it done. Not challenging, genuinely curious.

The mercury was used on a patch or piece of wadding material on a cleaning rod. Old timers in our club did this from time to time.

 

[alcessapiens]

The mercury was used on a patch or piece of wadding material on a cleaning rod. Old timers in our club did this from time to time.

Nice, slow patch. That’ll work. I always corked the muzzle and, using a glass chemist’s funnel with a couple of inches of thin pipette, poured the barrel 2/3 full and let it sit a day or so then turned it muzzle down for a day or so. Zero lead in the grooves. I had an old numrich arms 45/70 rolling block barrel given to me for scrap steel that had known years of soft lead bullets (wheelweight lead or Lyman #2 alloy would have been better or even gas checks) . I corked it ( rubber test tube stoppers not real corks since you can’t properly clean mercury out of organic cork) mercury loaded, turned and dumped, etc. still looked fairly smooth so I ran a bronze brush down it and a pile of lead corkscrews came out. A bit of brushing and some hoppes 9 and it looked unfired and brand new. Good enough that I had to go hunting about at gun shows for a rolling block with a bad barrel .43egyptian that looked as if it had been cleaned once (at the factory). Nice shooter although the barrel wall thickness was excessive and heavy on those numrich octagonal barrels.