Don't Flux your Lead.

[necchi]

To no one in particular.

Sure the "flux" looks like it stays on top as it burns off.
But what it's doing is burning, it's that act of burning that adds carbon molecules into the melt. Those carbon molecules "attach" themselves to impurities because it's easier than attaching to the lead alloy.
The carbon molecules are lighter and help impurities float.

It's a science/chemistry thing, that happens on a level too small to be seen with the eyes.
Kinda like this;H2O

Anything can add the carbon;
sawdust, dry grass, a wood stick that's used for stirring, new or used oil. Bee's wax or a crayon or candle scrapping are just easy and fast as the wax burns very fast, spreads quickly and is stirred in quickly.

 

[Billnpatti]

"Now, that's funny! I don't care who you are."

 

[Wes/Tex]

Why don't I get red water? :shake:

 

[bpd303]

I also think it's funny that using a bottom pour pot, I get more consistent results (as far as weight goes), when I flux than when I don't.

It doesn't matter if I'm casting round balls using soft lead or casting cartridge boolits using an alloy like Lyman #2. Seems to me fluxing gets more trash out of the melt no matter how clean it looks in ingot form.

 

[hanshi]

If the atoms actually fused, as you say, you'd have a nuclear reaction - read that atomic bomb.

 

[hanshi]

Ahem! I think we can use our imaginations and skip the details. :rotf:

 

[Wes/Tex]

Meanwhile, back at the casting bench...

http://flikie.s3.amazonaws.com/ImageStorage/b3/b383fbf05fcd11dfb74a000b2f3ed30f.jpg

 

[longcruise]

Yes, I think it's molecular fusion to be correct.

 

[Billnpatti]

The nuclei do not fuse because they cannot get close enough for that to happen. Each nucleus is surrounded by an electron cloud. However, the molecules have an attraction to each other that keeps the material together. The closer the molecules, the more solid the material. When lead or an alloy is solid, the molecules are close together. Not truly bonded but attracted enough to keep the material in a solid form. when you input energy in the form of heat, this additional energy causes the molecules to move farther apart and the lead becomes a liquid. If enough energy is input into the lead, the molecules will move even farther apart and it will become a gas, or more accurately, a fume. None of these changes involves either nuclear fusion nor nuclear fission.

Alloys are simply solutions involving metals. One metal is dissolved into another metal. The molecules of one metal are intermixed with the molecules of another metal. No nuclear reactions involved.

 

[Billnpatti]

It is not molecular fusion either. When two or more molecules fuse together, they share their electron cloud and become a new material, not an alloy or mixture. For instance, benzene is a molecule and ethylene is a molecule. If these two molecules fuse or react with one another, they form a new material, ethylbenzene. Ethylbenzene is neither benzene nor ethylene any longer, it is a new material. This is totally different from forming a solution. An example of a solution is sugar dissolved in water. When you do this, you do not change the two materials, they are still sugar and water. Evaporate the water and you have the sugar. But, you cannot evaporate the ethylene from the benzene and again have ethylene and benzene. In a solution such as an alloy you will have A+B=A+B. A and B are two separate materials and even when mixed, they remain two separate materials. They may be easily separated such as the sugar and water example or they may be difficult to separate such as a lead alloy but in either case, the molecules do not bond. While in a molecular fusion or reaction, you will have A+B=C where A and B are two different materials but when they fuse or react with one another, a completely new material, C, is formed.

 

[necchi]

:thumbsup:

 

[longcruise]

That's kinda what I'm thinking. WW is not "C" so is therefore a mixture as opposed to an alloy?

if not fused or bonded, then they could ultimately become separated if held in a melted state long enough without being stirred. Each element of WW should have a different weight and should eventually become layered.

FWIW, I never intended the terms fission or fusion to be applied in terms of nuclear reactions.😊

at this point I'm again tempted to advise to stir the pot, but maybe I've already done enough of that.😂

 

[mooman76]

I don't know about it myself but I have heard from metallurgists That yes it can be done but not the average person at home. I think you probably can get rid of some this way but you will also be getting rid of soft lead also and you won't get rid of all of it. Kind of like making soup and trying to remove the ingredients one at a time after they are in there. Yes they have different weights but are still mixed in not floating on top.

 

[Billnpatti]

I think Mooman76 pretty well covered it but I wanted to clarify one point. An alloy is a mixture. When two or more metals are mixed together and still remain individual metals such as lead and tin, they are just a mixture of two metals. Alloy = mixture. A mixture may, in some cases, be easily separated but in other cases, they may be quite difficult to separate. Unfortunately, lead alloys are the latter case. You cannot simply heat them to a melting point and separate them. The separation process is not something that can be accomplished in the home. About the only thing you can do to change the hardness of the lead alloy is to dilute it with soft lead. Doing this does not separate the metals that form the alloy, it simply dilutes them down. This would be like having too much sugar in your tea. You cannot remove the sugar but, you can dilute it down by adding more unsweetened tea. You still have the sugar, it hasn't gone away and you haven't removed it, you have just diluted it down to the point that you can now drink your tea.

 

[necchi]

Exactly, separating other metals from lead can be done but it's a huge commercial process.
Here's an example for just tin;

Briefly, the. method of the present invention involves heating a batch of lead-tin alloy and introducing lead chloride into the molten mass. The lead chloride establishes a condition in which preferential oxidation of the tin takes place, the lead being oxidized only to a very limited degree. The condition established by the lead chloride also 5 results in the separation of very little, if any, of the other metals which might be present. At the end ofthe reaction period the tin oxide and lead chloride are removed from the surface of the mass in the form of a scum. 10

As to tin removal, the present process is effective for the purposes contemplated when maintaining the following conditions of treatment.

The temperature of the molten bath must be above that necessary to melt the lead chloride introduced and preferably above about 1050 F., for the reason that below this temperature the tin oxide formed during the process will not readily separate from the mass. The temperature, moreover, should be kept below about 1200 F., since above this figure the reaction is not as preferential with respect to tin, and the quantity of lead oxidized and removed with the tin increases.

The molten bath, containing the lead chloride, is vigorously agitated, ,as by means of an impeller or the like, adapted to cause a circulating movement of the entire mass in the pot.

The same is done for antimony and others just with a different chemical. We're talking 10-20 ton batches, large commercial equipment and huge amounts of chemicals where all the metals are meant to be salvaged. I'm pretty sure an outfit like Rotometals does this stuff.

The home caster just can't do it with a pot on a coleman stove.

 

[hanshi]

And even steel, brass, some aluminum alloys and alloyed lead (WW as an example) are alloys. An alloy can be reduced; rust, for example, can be reduced by freeing oxygen atoms and leaves one with iron metal.

 

[Billnpatti]

Close, but iron oxide is not an alloy. Here is some info on alloys that may help you understand what they are. It is probably more than you wanted to know about alloys so just pick out what you want and junk the rest.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/...fid/17/tid/288419/pid/1392413/post/last/#LAST

 

[FishDFly]

After a couple of centuries of casting, why is fluxing not needed/recommended now, a new technology happen along?

 

[BrownBear]

Without regard for the hardness of the resulting "lead," I've found it very worthwhile to flux range scrap.

When you first melt it down all the trash (ranging from jackets to dirt) is still kind of slurried into the lead. Scrape it off, and you're bringing a whole lot of lead right along with it.

But if you flux well, all that crap sits right on top of the lead, making it real easy to skim off while leaving the lead behind. I'm sure that in each batch of range scrap I melt down (around 50# at a crack) I'm recovering and extra 2#-4# of lead for my fluxing. Can't sneeze at that.

 

[FishDFly]

That has been my learning from casting since the early 1970s.

With out a getting into chemistry and specific gravity, fluxing works and for a reason.

:stir:

I went back to the OP and found the above.