double ball

[Joel/Calgary]

It can't be twice the energy and twice the wounds. You are doubling the mass of the projectiles but using a constant powder load. Buck and ball at Cemetery Ridge was one thing but for hunting is another. A larger round will concentrate the energy better than two or three balls. Double ball sounds potent but may, in actuality, be less so.

There have been multiple discussions of double balls, and this information has been posted more than once:

When done correctly/safely, you do actually gain more energy out of given powder charge with two balls. In the four single- vs. double-ball loads that Herb presented data for in this thread , the muzzle energy increases ranged from 17%-29%. He worked up a double-ball .40 hunting load so a friend could meet a minimum-projectile-weight regulation for deer, and it took the deer.

Also, I've seen a number of terminal-ballistics discussions that suggest that multiple impacts give disproportionate increases in stopping power, so two balls each hitting at 58-64% of the single-ball energy could easily be more effective than the single ball, assuming adequate penetration. Given that the higher the velocity, the faster the rate of slowing, I'd expect that the percentage of difference in energy would be increasing somewhat downrange compared to at the muzzle. Ain't a lot, but it is something to consider.

Regards,
Joel

 

[54ball]

Was reading double ball thread awhile back. When it' done do ya use patch on both? And does this not increase the risk of a barrel failure like with an obstruction? Only ever did it in a high power bb gun to make a shot gun outta it and that worked!

Patch on both balls; in a rifle that is, and it's crucial that both balls be stacked on one another with no void between.

This is not a good performing load in a smoothbore. Most rifles will place the ball side by side, smoothbores tend to pattern the ball. The further the distance to the target the further the balls are from one another.

Anothe thought I had was to put a wad of tallow between the balls. This might prevent the balls from deforming each other.

Risky, too much of a chance for a void between the ball.

I have, on a couple of occasions, accidently double charged my rifle. That is, I have loaded it, been talking to someone enough to be distracted and forget that I have already loaded my rifle. I have then placed a second charge of powder in the rifle followed by a second patched ball. No harm was done since only the first powder charge is ignited and the second is blown out of the muzzle. But, the recoil is increased noticeably because of the increased mass being discharged from the rifle. On the couple of occasions when this has happened, no damage was done to my rifle. I would not expect it to be because this load is less than the load used to proof the barrel.

IMHO you were lucky in that instance. I believe it's probable that that charge did indeed light and your barrel held, maybe not but the charge above the original load has the potential of going off mid bore and creating a double shock wave and that is the same as a barrel obstruction.

If one realizes they have double loaded, never shoot it out.

I am about to throw away a nice little Dixie Mtn rifle in .50 calibre because I read on here that it is safe to discharge a rifle that is double loaded. Now the barrel is rung. It has a noticeable widening of the barrel about 3 inches forward of the breach.

Case in point.

 

[RC]

I've done it..with rifles .50 cal, 54 cal, 58 cal. an with smoothbore 62.. powder, bare ball, then patched ball.. at 50yds balls usually at most 3-4" apart..have had them go thru about same hole..would be good for deer hunting but illegal in n.y. during muzzleloading..but if you was trackin a wounded deer,,,,...never had a problem..an surprises others who try it,, that's jus my experiences..I can't see any problem trouble or unsafe factor in it,,jus did it by accident once, ball slipped off patch so got another ball an shot an checked..lol

 

[roundball]

I don't think I'll be doing it either. I would assume that the recoil would be stiff!
Geo. T.

FWIW, I noticed nothing out of the ordinary...the total weight is less than a big caliber sized conical.

PS: Just we're all clear, I'm just responding to the thread with actual first hand information...my purpose is not trying to recommend that anybody use double ball loads...don't care what anybody else does.

I simply took it up as a project, ran some good controlled experiments, took a deer with a double ball .45cal load just to do it, no plans to routinely use double ball loads as I have larger calibers for different size game on hand.

 

[nkbj]

Shooting very many max loads with bullets in TC rifles makes me feel about like a little bird sitting on the clothesline in the winter rain. Brrrr.
Those rifles sure are built to take it.

 

[Patocazador]

Multi wound would be the princple behind buck shot. An ounce of buck has the same energy as a 1 ounce ball, but the buck can make a nasty set of woundsm
People who have killed game with it can be good guids for its use. I would enjoy reading their experinces.

As far as buckshot goes, my 2 SxS BP guns don't group it worth a flip because they are both cylinder bores. In modern shotguns I've killed ~ a dozen deer and about the same number of hogs with 00 buckshot from full choked guns. Be within 50 yards and aim for the nose and the buckshot will pile them up.

 

[Billnpatti]

"If one realizes they have double loaded, never shoot it out."

The fact is that I did not know I had double loaded my rifle until I fired it and noticed that it kicked like a mule. Then I realized what I had done. I would not have fired it had I known ahead of time that it was double loaded. I am pretty sure that the second powder charge did not go off because my patch/ball combination was a snug fit and required a bit of force to get it started. That rifle liked a tight patch/ball combination and I did not have any indication on my patches that there was any burn through from gasses escaping past the patch/ball. In any case, no damage was done but I have not done it again in a loooong time. I have developed a loading procedure to avoid dry balling or double charging or double loading while I am loading my rifle. My procedure is that I do not talk or answer questions while I am loading. If I put in the powder but, for any reason, I do not immediately load the patched ball, I leave the powder measure stuck in the muzzle to let me know where I am in the loading procedure. if I seat the patched ball but am waiting to get to the firing line, I leave my range rod stuck in the bore. Don't worry, I will not forget it and shoot it out, it is pretty long and has a brass doorknob on the end. If I were to be enough of a dim bulb and went to the firing line with it still in the bore, I would not be able to see past the doorknob to see the target. You don't forget things like that. It has worked for me for several years now. But, no system is perfect and I have managed to run into situations sufficiently distracting that I have dry balled my rifle in spite of a "fool proof" technique. Just goes to show that you can make a thing fool proof but you can't make it idiot proof. :hatsoff:

 

[stinkyfeet]

I have doubled ball a few times on purose and once on accident. With 70 grains of 3f in my 45 the balls will dang near touch at 35 yards. My 50 cal will key hole then usually on right above the other but touching.

 

[don hepler]

I try to stick with, factory published load information. If Thompson/Center published 2 ball load, showing powder charge, and velocity and energy results, then it should be safe in a Thompson/Center rifle, for which the information, was published. Does that mean it's safe in other rifles, or other calibers, or even other models of Thompson/Center rifles? Who knows? I think in those rifles, that the "published" information was given, then it should be safe. The problem is that people, want to add another ball, or increase powder charges, or add other projectiles, and that's why you get into trouble making those type of suggestions.

 

[roundball]

and that's why you get into trouble making those type of suggestions.

:shake:

1) I clearly did NOT make a suggestion for anyone to use a double ball load.

2) I clearly DID post a strong statement to the contrary.

 

[don hepler]

No, I'm sorry I didn't mean you suggested. I meant that's probably why Thompson/Center, quit publishing, that information. And I mean in general, if anybody, suggest anything to anyone, eventually someone will start going outside the line. (I was agreeing with your statement as to why TC stopped, giving that information)

I agree with what you wrote. Sorry I didn't explain myself.

 

[RedFeather]

Well, if it's been tested and actual increases occur, then it does produce more energy. Just seemed counter-intuitive but got me to wondering why? Maybe the double load creates a more efficient powder burn, raising pressures a bit? At any rate, if it works, well, it works.

 

[nchawkeye]

It can't be twice the energy and twice the wounds. You are doubling the mass of the projectiles but using a constant powder load. Buck and ball at Cemetery Ridge was one thing but for hunting is another. A larger round will concentrate the energy better than two or three balls. Double ball sounds potent but may, in actuality, be less so.

If you will reread my post you will see that I double the charge for 2 balls.... :thumbsup:

 

[roundball]

Planning to a 2XPRB load out of my .40cal Late Lancaster on a deer this fall...high shoulder shot, should be DRT.
Sights are set for 40grns Goex 3F for plinking & small game...found the 2XPRB load shoots to same POI with the same POA using 70grns Goex 2F...not quite twice the powder charge but close enough / plenty of power for deer at 30-50yds...don't want to change the sights just for some field tests.

 

[54ball]

Bill, Please do not think I was picking on you. I just wanted to clarify that it's not a good idea to shoot out a double charged rifle. That's why I put

If one realizes they have double loaded,

You obviously did not realize it, mistakes happen.
:hatsoff:

 

[MJMarkey]

I think it a bad idea. And if any of you are at a range and decide to do this and I'm there, please, please mention it to me and I'll leave the area. Thank you.

 

[cynthialee]

I think it a bad idea. And if any of you are at a range and decide to do this and I'm there, please, please mention it to me and I'll leave the area. Thank you.

Your apprehension is misplaced.
A double ball load in a rifle is what was called "loaded for bear". Davy did it and had no troubles. Our very own Roundball killed a deer with a bear load last year after doing some testing the load at the range.

A multiple projectile packet of different sized balls was shot out of muskets by military units for a number of generations. They called it a "buck and ball" load.

So long as there is no gap between the balls (thus causing a bore obstruction) then you have no worries about such a load.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Yes,sir...listen to the lady, she's telling it straight up. A double ball load is not inherently dangerous in itself. Too much powder could be a problem but two round balls is no heavier than a single Minie type projectile. As Cynthialee mentioned, not getting the two balls seated against each other CAN be a problem. It would probably act like a bore stoppage and your pretty gun might look like a daisy at the end, or worse. Just a mite of conscious thought to be sure the balls a re seated together will keep the load safe! :thumbsup:

 

[morehops]

I remember reading somewhere that during the Rev War (?) some infantry used to load a "buck and ball" load. I'm not sure that I have that named correctly, but the idea was that you had one bore size ball and two smaller ones. Made sense due to soldiers being lined up. You had a better chance of hitting one or more targets. I don't know the loading details. Perhaps someone else can shed more light than my failing memory here.

 

[nchawkeye]

I remember reading somewhere that during the Rev War (?) some infantry used to load a "buck and ball" load. I'm not sure that I have that named correctly, but the idea was that you had one bore size ball and two smaller ones. Made sense due to soldiers being lined up. You had a better chance of hitting one or more targets. I don't know the loading details. Perhaps someone else can shed more light than my failing memory here.

The Halifax militia here in North Carolina did...