Double Barrel Shotguns?

[Bobby James]

Did they have double barrel shotgun muzzleloaders back in pre 1840?

If so what kind?

I have seen some Pedersoli double barrel shotguns at Cabela's, are they history and period correct?

 

[Jason Lewis]

yes, they were flintlocks. so, none of the period shotguns that pedersoli makes are correct for pre 1840.

 

[FishDFly]

Did they have double barrel shotgun muzzleloaders back in pre 1840?

If so what kind?

I have seen some Pedersoli double barrel shotguns at Cabela's, are they history and period correct?

If you define H/C and P/Cc as pre 1840, very few are going to be H/C and P/C which are made today, just my opinion especially with chrome lined bores and screw in chokes. Seems kind of modern to me.

 

[Grandpa Ron]

How period correct do you want to be?

The percussion cap was in use by the 1820 but today’s guns are a bit different.

1. The stock drop and style are different.

2. The barrels were often Damascus twist.

3. The locks are investment cast.

4. The bores are often chrome lined and shorter.

5. Many originals were fine quality well balanced pieces built for the upper class.

Personally I find the modern gun an improvement and except for the stock shape most of the differences require a closer look to detect.

 

[Bobby James]

Kind of what I am trying to find out is if I had a percussion cap or flint lock double barrel shot gun at a Rendezvous camp would it be accepted as period/history correct?

 

[Coot]

Kind of what I am trying to find out is if I had a percussion cap or flint lock double barrel shot gun at a Rendezvous camp would it be accepted as period/history correct?

My answer would be maybe. Many rendezvous are not particularly detail oriented but your double barrel would be unusual & likely to attract more attention than a single. Are you planning to portray a wealthier person? I ask because a double would not be inexpensive in the pre 1840 (typical rondy time cut off) period. That said, percussion would be ok from say 1830 or a bit earlier on up. Flint would of course be acceptable for 1840 & back. Likely any double made today will have a top rib which according to Major Pollard's History of Firearms, dates from about 1780. Needless to say, the style of the gun should reflect the time that you are looking to recreate. I would be more comfortable with another choice.

 

[robinghewitt]

No problem. I have an over under shotgun by Gruche which makes it c1690.

3 and 4 barrel guns were not uncommon because they hadn't worked out what a shotgun should look like yet.

20 gauge with a long barrel was normal until Nock's patent breech meant you could venture beyond sitting birds.

Early 19th Century and the world had gone patent mad, new fangled designs made lots of old guns obsolete and cheap :thumbsup:

 

[dave_person]

Hi Bobby,
French makers made side-by-side double barreled fowling guns at least as early as the first quarter of the 18th century. Other folks may know of even earlier examples. There are also examples of side-by-side double barreled pistols during the wheellock era. Side-by-side sporting guns were made in Britain during the last half of the 18th century. Early examples often had French barrels, but eventually, British makers improved and perfected their manufacture. William Bailes is sometimes credited with inventing the sighting rib, Nock invented a breech that increased the reliability and speed of ignition, several makers improved the flintlock to also speed ignition. By the early 19th century, the combination resulted in what are probably the finest S x S flintlock shotguns ever produced.

dave

 

[Grandpa Ron]

Unique and expensive would be the description of an 18th century double barrel flintlock. Your persona would have to match, unless it was a spoil of war. :hmm:

A percussion gun sets you well into the second quarter of the 19th century, as mentioned about 1840.

By 1840 you have missed the peak heydays of the Long Hunters or Voyageurs and the F&I war, Rev war and War of 1812 are long past. You are into the western mountain man era and the start of the western expansion. By the 1870’s cartridge guns will be coming on strong.

Those who portray the western mountain man usually prefer the half stock percussion rifle but a double barrel percussion shotgun will fit the era. Unfortunately the shooting matches are usually rifle oriented.

Percussion double barrel shotguns found their following among the more settled population and fed a lot of families well into the 1900's.

In the end, the all-around gun for any period is the flintlock smoothbore fowler or trade gun. They were well made, inexpensive and found in almost every era, alongside of the latest in gun technology.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Although some firearms were "available somewhere", would they be common or even found at the original Rendezvous?

How common were percussion firearms "out West" at that time period?

If the question is would they be accepted at a modern day Rendezvous, I would think so, because most are fairly "accommodating".

 

[Grandpa Ron]

You are correct. This is the endless commentary as to what as common and what was available.

If you want to portray the average Yeoman then you must stick to the commonplace. This serves many people quite well.

I prefer those unique individuals and items that filter through history. Those assorted oddities found at virtually every archeological dig. To me they represent a window into the variety that was present in everyday life.

A double barrel shotgun at a western rendezvous may be as common as a female artist traveling in a Hudson’s Bay Company canoe brigade. :shocked2: But, her name was Frances Hopkins and thanks to her we have detailed artwork of the closing years of the Voyageurs.

 

[LaBonte]

There were plenty of double shotguns available in the west by the RMFT era of 1822-1840. By the mid 1820's percussion double guns were a major import item - both cheap and high end and English as well as Belgian made - barrels were both Damascus twist and plain iron.
In the 1830's double barrel percussion shotguns are well documented, especially for use by the night guards who were often cam keepers i.e. the low man on the totem pole.
There is a chapter in the book, "The Hawken Rifle: It's place in History" that is basically a listing of adverts form this era in the ST Louis newspaper - by the 1830's thousands of caps were being sold and there are also lots of shotguns being listed.
So as for being a proper arm for this era the answer is an unequivocal yes albeit percussion guns would be mostly post 1830.

 

[crockett]

LaBonte is absolutely correct, there were plenty of double barrel shotguns. They are mentioned in the various diaries and journals written at the time by the mountain men themselves.
BUT.....the replicas available- I'm not that happy with them. They are really a modern type double barrel with percussion locks. This is one area of muzzle loading that just hasn't taken off- a really good reproduction of one of the guns of the day. The devil is in the details but I suppose the drop of comb and heel are very important because they give that "look" which is correct. The more drop- the more recoil is felt but being pc is what this pursuit is all about.
I don't know any builder that is reproducing a historical piece when it comes to side by side double barrel shotguns. There may be a few.
There should be NO CAMP that gives you a problem with having one at a Rondy event.The double barrels were used for night sentry duty on the horses.
I should say, on the diaries, there is always some wiggle room as there was another type of "double gun' which was an over/under rifle that rotated at the breech. The point is if you read about shooting "both barrels' you can't just assume it is a double shotgun- could be a rifle- Jim Bridger carried one of the swivel breech rifles.
In any event- getting back to your question- some of the photos of the old guns- splinter forwards, graceful lines, really thin wrists- nice looking shotguns. Most of the replicas are boxy and lack that graceful look, IMHO.

 

[Supercracker]

If you decide you want a percussion double shotgun and are willing to invest some looking around time, you should be able to find a shootable original for about what you'd pay for a new one.

I hunt with a really nice Belgian gun that I got for considerably less than $1000. Not too long ago I just missed out on a shootable Westley Richards for even less.

 

[greggholmes]

This weekend i hope to pick up my great grandfathers double percussion shotgun. unfortunately some idiot cousins way back in the day decided to over load both barrels and fire them both off at the same time. it probably wouldn't be so bad but they put the butt against a tree and broke the stock at the wrist. Im going to see if i can save the stock..

 

[crockett]

That's a good point about checking on originals. Sometimes it is easy to just forget that aspect. A while back you could pick up a 1849 Colt pocket pistol (32 caliber) in some instances for $750-$900 which isn't that much more than a replica.

 

[Billnpatti]

I am not going to make any recommendations about this company. I've heard good and bad so Buyer Beware. Middlesex Village Trading Company www.middlesexvillagetrading.com has a nice "looking" flint double barrel shotgun at a reasonable price. Their guns are made in India for what that's worth. Take a look but ask around before buying.

 

[LaBonte]

I would definitely agree about looking into a good shootable original here's some sources http://www.gunsinternational.com/Antique-Percussion-Shotguns.cfm?cat_id=758
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/list/Item.aspx/494/1
https://www.google.com/search?sour...+shotgun&gs_l=hp....0.0.1.100605...........0.

In my experience a good original is much better than most of the modern repros in so far as weight, balance, looks, etc.

 

[Grandpa Ron]

I certainly agree, the profile of the modern guns does not match the originals.

However, speaking from experiences both my 1870’s vintage percussion double and my 1880’s cartridge gun have the classic 19th century stock drops, and unless you are willing to learn to shoot in the “gentlemanly manner”, that is, head erect, shoulders back, you will most likely add a lace on comb.

Yes, I know people who can handle these old timers with little difficulty but I am not one of them. I shoot a lot of modern skeet with a straight hand, double trigger side x side but switching to the old style drop just does not work for me.

Perhaps if I only had one gun I could adjust but I do not expect the firearms makers to return to the older stock dimensions any time soon.

I will have to defer as to how common the percussion double was out west in the 1830 to 1840 time frame. They certainly were available.

My reenacting interest centers on the southern Great Lakes a century earlier.

 

[Lorne Johnson]

I own four originals, and only a couple of them balance better than the Pedersolis. Stock dimensions vary a good deal, though it's hardly unusual for them to be stocked fairly low.

That said, I do like the old guns.