Dove Load - Jug Choke Imp. Cyl. +

[roundball]

Outstanding results today pattern testing a load in the .62cal/.20ga Flint smoothbore barrel that I had Jug Choked "Imp. Cyl. Plus".

The chart shows the pellet count and distribution at 20, 30, and 40 yards using a single Oxyoke wad in one series of tests, then a single 1/2" circle fly cushion wad in the other series.

The pattern test papers were 25" x 30" and were basically filled to their edges.
The single 1/2" cushion wad won the day...should be a good dove load.

 

[Mike Brooks]

Circle Fly is selling a pre lubed cushion wad these days that is giving me fantastic results in BP cartridge shot guns. You might consider giving them a whirl. I don't know what their lube is, but it's good stuff, only on the outside too, the the wad stays light and doesn't blow your pattern. I believe they are offering their felt wads lubed the same way, which I want to try in my 18 bore SXS flint gun one of these days.
I'm not surprised the 1/2" cushion out performed the wonder wad. They give a much better seal than those floppy little wonder wads. In my experience I've always had to use a hard card and at least 2 or 3 wonder wads to get what I thought was a good seal. I never though 1 wonder wad by it's self carried enough lube to make them worth the trouble and expense of using them.

 

[roundball]

Circle Fly is selling a pre lubed cushion wad these days

That's what these are...been using some in the .62 and the .54 for the past couple years

 

[Mike Brooks]

Circle Fly is selling a pre lubed cushion wad these days

That's what these are...been using some in the .62 and the .54 for the past couple years

Great, glad you found them. I only just found them a month ago. Up till then I'd been "frying my dry circle fly wads in melted sold crisco, but you have to be so careful not to let them soak up to much lube. These Circle Fly pre lubes are very consistent with the amount of lube. They just help knock out another variable. :thumbsup:

 

[10 gauge]

Nice patterns, Have you tried this combination?
Powder charge, 1/8"OP wad, 1/2"lubed fiber wad, thin overshot wad, Shot charge and thin overshot wad.
This is the combination that I've used for years with great success using all Circle Fly Wad products. This stacking combination was standard even in smokeless shotshells before plastic wads were around.
This stacking combination will help protect your lubed fiber cushion wad which will also protect your lead shot. The added 1/8" OP wad and OS wad will aid in your gas seal which will improve on velocity performance. :thumbsup:

 

[BrownBear]

I'm watching your results with the 62 pretty carefully Roundball due to my preference and history for the 20 in cartridge guns. Frankly you have me considering that a Pedersoli double 20 will be lots more versatile than I had guessed. I'd been trying to decide between a 12 and a 10, but a 20 sounds like a lot more fun.

Here's a question, probably based more on the places I hunt doves than anything:

My standard dove load out to 40 yards in 20 gauge is 1 oz of #7 1/2's, and in 28 gauge it's 3/4 oz of #8's. I see you're using 1 3/8 oz of #6's.

Do you need such heavy charges of large shot in your conditions, or would a lighter charge of a little smaller shot do just fine? I'm not being critical, because one almond orchard I hunt certainly requires a 3" 20 gauge load- 1 1/4 oz of #7 1/2's. A couple of my pards have even switched to 12 gauge short mags for that particular spot.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Roundball: I was thinking that you were using #6 copper plated shot in this test, because of other threads you have discussed this on, but I didn't see any indication of the shot size in your table, or accompanying text. Are we wrong?

 

[10 gauge]

Roundball, who did your choke work and how many thousandths did they remove to get your improve cylinder plus? How far down the bore did they start the jug and whats the length of the jug?
Sorry for all the questions but I'm always interested in other peoples techniques. Thanks 10 Gauge.

 

[bingo1952]

I have some of their lubed wads and they smell like Murphy's Oil Soap with a hint of Pinesol thrown in to me.

 

[10 gauge]

So now when I spend money and buy a bunch I can tell my wife that there house cleaning products. :rotf:

 

[roundball]

The barrels I use are strong 1" GM octagon barrels and this load is just a 3 dram load, like a K-mart promotional load but with a little more shot in it.
Based upon muzzleloading shotgun articles I've read over the years I adopted the rule of thumb to always use a ratio of more shot to powder.
I like 6's because they pattern better at longer distances than smaller lighter shot and carry more energy further at the same time.

And while I could probably cut back on this particular shot charge, it patterned so well all the way out to 40yds I just decided "if it ain't broke I wasn't gonna fix it" and didn't bother wasting any more powder & shot experimenting.

 

[roundball]

Roundball, who did your choke work and how many thousandths did they remove to get your improve cylinder plus? How far down the bore did they start the jug and whats the length of the jug?
Sorry for all the questions but I'm always interested in other peoples techniques. Thanks 10 Gauge.

Lowell Tennyson
209 E Lotte St.
Blue Grass IA. 52726
563-381-3711
[email protected]

Starts about an inch inside the muzzle, is about 2-2.5" long, and for the IC+ he said he'd take out about .015".

He did another for me that's a full choke, took out about .025", and it'll average 5 killing pellets in a turkey head at 40yds.

 

[paulvallandigham]

Roundball: I think your comment on the patterns being so good has to be a gross UNDERSTATEMENT!

The first load threw 53% of the shot into the pattern at 40 yards, while the second one put 63% of the shot into the pattern. I would say that is darn good, even with the "improved", improved cylinder bore choke. ( I suspect it is what was once called " skeet 2" choke, but it doesn't matter. Choke for black powder loads is much different that that use for smokless powder shells, and guns.) :hatsoff:

 

[10 gauge]

What makes a "Black Powder" choke?

 

[paulvallandigham]

Black Powder choke was traditional done by jug choking, enlarging an area behind the muzzle so that the shot traveling down the barrel first expands into the wider area, and then is constricted( and its believed the column shortened again) in the bottle neck approaching the muzzle.

What we find with any kind of choking for BP smoothbores, is that it takes less constriction to produce full choke patterns at the velocities that BP works at, than it does in smokeless powder guns. So, while it takes 30 pts. of constriction in the typical 12 gauge smokeless powder gun to reach full choke, it is often reached in BP guns with constriction as little as 20-25 pts.

 

[10 gauge]

I always thought that it was Fred Kimble who invented the choke in 1868 and it was done by constriction and the jug choking process came after as an alternative to smooth bores or damaged barrels that had their chokes removed.

 

[paulvallandigham]

The British might differ with your crediting Mr. Kimble, but I am not going to argue the point.

My point is that because the jug choke involves a longer opening, the bottle neck that is the " choke " part produces tighter patterns with black powder loads and velocities, with less constriction, than is required in modern shotgun barrels.

There are after market companies making long chokes for modern shotgun barrels using the same principles to obtain tighter patterns with modern guns. Some of the gun makers have played with the idea, too.

I know a good friend with a Remington 1100 barrel that has a long throat, which he used in shooting Registered Trap for a number of years. It also shoots slugs well, and with the newer Olympic shells, has produced some 98%, 40 yard patterns. ( 3 1/4 dram equ., 24 grams of No 7 shot, Gee Whizz velocity) The Barrel was given to him to try out by a Remington Executive at Vandalia, Ohio during one of the annual ATA Championship shoots there. It is not, nor has it been a production item.

A common practice among Trap Shooters is to relieve the throat of their modern gun barrels using a long tapered reamer. This tends to round the patterns, by getting rid of flyers, contributing to more pellets in the pattern, too.In a slug barrel, it causes less damage to the sides of the slug as it leaves the casing, and improves the accuracy of shotgun slugs( the traditonal, Hollow base, Foster Style slug) remarkably. All of these techniques use the same idea: The longer the slope the less damage done to soft shot, or lead slugs, and the better the accuracy. The same idea is being jug chokes, and explains why they work so well. Today, long extension full choke, and " Extra Full choke" tubes are now being sold that deliver tight full choke patters at long range, for shooting turkeys, and crows. The long tubes have long shallow angle chokes in them, compared to the more abrupt chokes found in factory choked barrels, and choke tubes.

 

[10 gauge]

That's funny that you mentioned a 1100 trap gun. I've been shooting a 1981 production 1100 trap competitively for three years now. Its a fixed full, at the 16yd line it shoots slugs but at the 26 and 27 yd line it comes into its own.
You mentioned your friends barrel throat on the Remington. Are you trying to explain that the forcing cone area has been relieved/removed or that the barrel has been "Back Bored"? Relieving the forcing cone and Back Boring was a big new thing in the 80s and 90s as a way to decrease recoil/increase performance. but today a lot of us trap shooters know it was more sales gimmick then anything else. But as you stated 98% in a 30" circle at 40 yds is unbelievably tight, I'd like to see that pattern sheet. I've never heard or seen of even 90% in a 30" at 40 yds.

 

[roundball]

"...Back Boring..."

My 1187 trap gun is factory back bored...that does reduce felt recoil and a side effec of the bore being over-bored larger than normal cylinder bore is that it creates the expansion chamber effect of a jug choke at the muzzle, so there is not as much constriction required by the choke tube itself, because the enlarged bore is already being constricted back down to normal cylinder bore dimension prior to muzzle exit.

The screw in chokes that come with a back bored Remington 1187 are marked full, extra full, and super full...but in fact that are nothing more than the standard Imp Cyl, Mod, and Full choke tubes that come with a field gun...just re-labeled...I mic'd them as identical, then called and got it personally verified by Remington's Service Manager, Dennis Sanita.

 

[10 gauge]

That is correct about your choke tubes Roundball, thats why Remington does not sell them as an accessory.
Mr ATA testing guru him self Don Zutz best pattern was 85% and has heard of some choke companies approaching 90%. Anyway I'm sorry Roundball for going off the trail with your thread, I'll stop my gab.