Personally I suggest a spade bit to burning, not for any other reason than its what I'm used to. Although, I tried burning a horn once, heated an old round file red hot jammed her in and saw flames shoot out about 6 inches 'round my hand- so glad I was wearing gloves for that one!! Haven't tried that again since. :haha:
Drill a curved hole
- Thread starter crockett
- Start date
Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:
- Joined
- May 6, 2014
- Messages
- 17,484
- Reaction score
- 16,566
crockett said:
That raises another question. Did the original Horners use a reamer to finish the spout hole and if so, was it a taper reamer?
Gus
ohio ramrod
75 Cal.
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2008
- Messages
- 7,473
- Reaction score
- 2,213
I don't know if the hole was originaly tapered or the taper just sort of "wore in" but the only two original horns I have studied both had a slight taper to the spout. :idunno:
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2005
- Messages
- 8,027
- Reaction score
- 1,031
I tried a tapered reamer which I purchased from the local hardware store, but the angle is too steep. there is a gadget for reaming violin pegs, but my violin maker friend says the cost a zillion dollars. (he let me use his once, but he didn't seem very enthusiastic about it).
just my two cents worth :thumbsup:
just my two cents worth :thumbsup:
Artificer said:
I don't recall the hole being smoother. :idunno:
Drilling is pretty easy. Burning wasn't hard just more complicated.
I bent a rod to the same curve as the horn, clamped the rod in a vise and heated it red hot with a torch, then just jammed the horn on the rod while trying to follow the curve.
I didn't get any fire, just tons of stanky smoke.
Do wear gloves. Work outside. Try and hold your breath.
The horn sorta melts with the heat. It will turn into powerful glue that can stick a drill bit or a heated rod if you don't keep it moving. Remember, back in the day they melted down horns, hooves, and hides to make glue.
I use the handle end of a file to taper ream the spout. Just poke it in and twist back and forth and spin gently. Makes a perfect taper.
- Joined
- May 6, 2014
- Messages
- 17,484
- Reaction score
- 16,566
My thanks to you and other members who answered my questions.
That "melting with the heat" is what I found when burning through horn/antler and seemed to make the holes smoother than drilling them. I found I did not have to chamfer the edges of burnt holes like I did for drilled holes, because with burnt holes there was no "burr" around the hole edges.
Now that is a great idea! With the number of tanged files I have in different sizes, it should not be difficult to find one that fits the hole. Thank you.
Gus
Jethro224 said:
That "melting with the heat" is what I found when burning through horn/antler and seemed to make the holes smoother than drilling them. I found I did not have to chamfer the edges of burnt holes like I did for drilled holes, because with burnt holes there was no "burr" around the hole edges.
Jethro224 said:
Now that is a great idea! With the number of tanged files I have in different sizes, it should not be difficult to find one that fits the hole. Thank you.
Gus
??? Where is Horner75 in all this discussion???
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2005
- Messages
- 8,027
- Reaction score
- 1,031
doubtless busy making something, the quality and artistry of which will put the rest of us knuckle dragging mouth breathers to shame.
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,657
- Reaction score
- 13
Sorry! I just read this thread and getting a little slow on come backs. Thanks for the kind words.
My take on burning spout holes is this. If the powder horn was made by someone at a farm, homestead etc., who didn't have a hand drill. Burning a hole with a red hot wire probably was more common. In my earlier years of horn making, I tried this on a couple of cow horns to mainly see if I could do it. I did with mixed results. I did it the way I DRILL the spout holes in my horns today. I use a coat hanger wire and bend it to the general curve of the horn. I then stick this wire into the horn to measure the interior cavity depth and mark the wire at the big end of the horn. I will then take the wire and hold it along side or the horn and mark the tip end of the wire where it stops. This is the depth of the cavity of the horn. From the mark that I just put on the horn at the end of the wire, I measure about an inch to an inch and a half and make another mark, then cut the tip of the horn off at this mark. This is the straight short area of the horn that you burn out or drill. Mark the center in the horn end and drill slowly watching your alignment. It doesn't matter how thick the spout end is, as you have to scrape or file it down anyway. In the many gun shops and horn factories of the 18th Century. Most if not all of the spout tips were drilled not burnt. Remember, Not everybody was a Blacksmith to forge drill bits and files were very expensive and the average Farmer or Homesteader probably wouldn't of been able to afford such a luxury tool!
Tapers: Tapering a spout hole is easily accomplished by using the tang end of a file as a scraper.
Hope this helps,
Rick
My take on burning spout holes is this. If the powder horn was made by someone at a farm, homestead etc., who didn't have a hand drill. Burning a hole with a red hot wire probably was more common. In my earlier years of horn making, I tried this on a couple of cow horns to mainly see if I could do it. I did with mixed results. I did it the way I DRILL the spout holes in my horns today. I use a coat hanger wire and bend it to the general curve of the horn. I then stick this wire into the horn to measure the interior cavity depth and mark the wire at the big end of the horn. I will then take the wire and hold it along side or the horn and mark the tip end of the wire where it stops. This is the depth of the cavity of the horn. From the mark that I just put on the horn at the end of the wire, I measure about an inch to an inch and a half and make another mark, then cut the tip of the horn off at this mark. This is the straight short area of the horn that you burn out or drill. Mark the center in the horn end and drill slowly watching your alignment. It doesn't matter how thick the spout end is, as you have to scrape or file it down anyway. In the many gun shops and horn factories of the 18th Century. Most if not all of the spout tips were drilled not burnt. Remember, Not everybody was a Blacksmith to forge drill bits and files were very expensive and the average Farmer or Homesteader probably wouldn't of been able to afford such a luxury tool!
Tapers: Tapering a spout hole is easily accomplished by using the tang end of a file as a scraper.
Hope this helps,
Rick
- Joined
- May 6, 2014
- Messages
- 17,484
- Reaction score
- 16,566
Rick,
Good Info. Thank you.
Gus
Good Info. Thank you.
Gus
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2005
- Messages
- 8,027
- Reaction score
- 1,031
Rick - -I use the tail end of a dead file, too. But I've ground down the edges so the angle isn't as steep (so, there's less taper). I usually use fiddle peg stoppers, which seem to fit well. Am I doing it wrong?
(didn't mean to hijack the thread - sorry)
(didn't mean to hijack the thread - sorry)
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,657
- Reaction score
- 13
MSW, That will work fine. Most people think that they need a real radical taper, when all you need is only a slight taper to get a good tight fit. I have a set of three Machinist Taper taps that I use, but also took a broken rat tail file and ground it short (teeth end) to chuck in my hand drill or drill press.
horner75- thanks for the good information. I am always amazed how a question can uncover a whole subject seldom discussed. When I asked about burning a hole I thought I might get a few laughs. I really didn't even know if it would work. This whole thing has opened up a lot of questions.
1. It sounds like both drilling and burning are period correct and the professional horner historically usually drilled.
2. On the tapering, I never could see the logic of a straight drilled hole and a tapered peg because the contact is just a ring around the peg. It always seemed to me a tapered peg would be best in a tapered hole. On the original horns, what percentage had tapered holes?
3. On the "melting" while burning- I can see how that would create a smooth surface but how well would that hold the peg?
4. My bison or buffalo horn. I think there are one or two buffalo horns from Kentucky but I was interested in a style used by mountain men. I'm trying to find on line images of originals but they are few and far between.
Any comments appreciated. :hmm:
1. It sounds like both drilling and burning are period correct and the professional horner historically usually drilled.
2. On the tapering, I never could see the logic of a straight drilled hole and a tapered peg because the contact is just a ring around the peg. It always seemed to me a tapered peg would be best in a tapered hole. On the original horns, what percentage had tapered holes?
3. On the "melting" while burning- I can see how that would create a smooth surface but how well would that hold the peg?
4. My bison or buffalo horn. I think there are one or two buffalo horns from Kentucky but I was interested in a style used by mountain men. I'm trying to find on line images of originals but they are few and far between.
Any comments appreciated. :hmm:
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,657
- Reaction score
- 13
crockett said:
It would be impossible to determine how many originals had tapered vs. untapered spout hole stoppers, mainly because most original horns still around have a replacement stopper from a later period. Not all, but many. Powder horn stoppers or spout plugs, were probably one of the least thought out parts of a powder horn, but should be focused on seriously. After all, it isn't the horn that just help keep your powder dry, but a good tight fitted stopper is opened and closed often and needs to keep that powder form being mush when needed.
As far as Buffalo powder horns go. Most made west of the Missouri were the simple designed styles, many with Native American influence. Some examples original to the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade show this from museum examples. You usually will not find a lot of engraving, if any, or flats on the spouts, engrailing etc. The farther west you traveled the simpler the horns became, as the people of the era wanted tough over fancy. The only examples of decorated Buff horns used brass tacks, light scratch carving images and/or raw hide repairs. Some examples of NA horns show Vermillion rubbed into horns for color.
Yeah- I'm figuring on keeping things pretty simple. Just drill (or burn) a hole for the peg, clean up the horn. I saw one horn and it looked like the base plug was pine. I've always turned plugs that were hard wood but someone said pine was actually used quite a bit- maybe just on the cheaper horns. I think brass tacks are wrong on an eastern longhunter but some mountain men horns had them. I was thinking square iron/steel nails. Probably a staple on the tip area just to regulate how the horn hangs.
On originals, I'm not sure about the small thong to keep the peg from being lost. Might just carry an extra peg.
Appreciate your help. At this point I'm all ears.
On originals, I'm not sure about the small thong to keep the peg from being lost. Might just carry an extra peg.
Appreciate your help. At this point I'm all ears.
- Joined
- May 9, 2005
- Messages
- 1,548
- Reaction score
- 100
Pine was common because the soft wood was less likely to crack the horn as it expanded or contracted - at least that's what I've heard, and it sounds logical.
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,657
- Reaction score
- 13
Most made west of the Missouri were the simple designed styles
Gus, I believe the horn you might be hinting about with the white ivory inlays was believed to of been made in the east. (ref: Museum of Western Expansion, St. Louis, Missouri).
Gus, I believe the horn you might be hinting about with the white ivory inlays was believed to of been made in the east. (ref: Museum of Western Expansion, St. Louis, Missouri).
Can't disagree but my take on stoppers for a working horn is more practical than esthetic. My fanciest stopper was carved ebony, a beauty. I lost it between point of acquisition and camp.
Too hard, did not stay put. Later I lost a couple of stoppers in the woods. Not good. :shake: So, now my best utilitarian stoppers are simply whittled from sticks I pick up in the woods while on a stand. The wood compresses to fit tightly in the spout. I pull with my teeth when reloading. Being in my teeth I can't forget where I put it. Works for me. Price is right too.If your burning, be aware that its sometimes difficult to keep things in alignment because your only going about 1/4" at a time. I burnt through the side of a nice horn with a really quick twist. Since then, on a twisty horn, I burn up from the inside for about a half to 3/4", and then drill down from the tip. The extra channel inside lets me drill a shorter distance with a straight hole. Be advised that you can get off line inside the horn too, but there is more margin for error or a slight misalignment.
