drill press to mill conversion

[Metalshaper]

http://www.weaponsguild.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23768.0;attach=103831

for the sake of argument..

if the link to the PDF works.. Here is an old PM article that shows what can be done with a Drill press! and Rudy Kaphout ( spl? ) the old master of machine work, often wrote articles about milling on a DP..

Before I got my X2, my Mill was made from an old Cummings tools company, Bench top DP..You didn't machine off Chunks, but if you were patient, it'd get-r done!

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

 

[Rifleman1776]

I went to college for funeral directing but it turns out that the fact that 40% of all funeral homes in the US are corporate owned and thus are being strangled by the failed economy has basically shot the funeral industry in the head.
My college education is worthless and all of the money I had sunk into it is more or less lost.

I don't understand that. Folks are still dying. I don't know how the economy can change that. Oh, well.
Besides the advice given so far, I suggest not buying any serious tools from Harbor Freight. Their tolerances are crude and performance often unsatisfactory. I have two low-end machinists vises in my woodworking shop and they are truly "low end" in every way. Very sloppy and innaccurate. HF tools are, IMHO, once a year or use once and throw away items.
As said, gunsmithing is something you work into over time. Don't just jump in, that is a formula for failure. I have seen it happen more than once.

 

[smo]

Matt, You are still a young man. I don't know anything about your health or work ethics. What I do know is there are jobs out there.Like Birddog said it most likely will not come knocking on your door,you'll have to go looking for it. I know you have access to the www or we would not be having this conversation,the www is a great place to find a job. I understand what it's like to be down,I've been there myself. I'm sure alot of the guys here have as well. I'm 54 now and have been very lucky too have been able to work when I wanted to for most of my adult life. I had several odd jobs when I was younger,I kinda jumped around not making much money at anything.I got a break from a guy that got me into a union job. Since that time I have traveled the Eastern U.S. from as far west as Grandbury Texas,North to Lake Erie and South to Homestead Fl. If you are able try to get hooked up in a Trade, you can still do Gunsmith work in your spare time,if you have any :wink:. I got started in the Nuclear power industry shortly after I got into the Trade,this August I will have 30 years in the industry. The average age of a nuclear worker now is 50 or above. Most of which have already retired from one job and are now double dipping at a much higher rate of pay. I'm not saying this is for you but it's an option that's worth looking into.All Building & Trades members are getting older and there are jobs out there... :hmm: :v Good Luck :thumbsup:

 

[44-henry]

Zonie,
I would think as a design engineer you would be more open than that. The Gingery series has been around since the 1970's and is a proven system. I have the books and see no fault with them and I have also seen the lathe and shaper in operation.

Though there are better ways to obtain mills and lathes than building them, it is not in any way impossible nor "hooey" as you described it. I am sure more than one 18th and 19th century gunsmith made lathes when they needed one. Manual arts schools used to do it on a regular basis in the 19th century both as a way of obtaining machines economically but also for the excellent experiential learning component that such a process provides to a student. This was still being done in one New York city high school up to the 1960's when they had students build small scale metal lathes as a shop project. Again, not the most efficient way to obtain a machine shop, but the journey there would be most rewarding and highly educational.

Lastly, have a look at the you tube videos below if you think what I say is nothing but "hooey".

Shaper Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZdbNWoySo0

Gingery Lathe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58GQ86rljWo

An example of the casting process used in Gingery Machine Tools
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzfRrGNwz60

 

[Davemuzz]

Zonie,
I would think as a design engineer you would be more open than that. The Gingery series has been around since the 1970's and is a proven system...

Lastly, have a look at the you tube videos below if you think what I say is nothing but "hooey".

I have "no dog in this fight" so to speak, but I've been following this post as I use to be a machinist, but that was over 30 years ago.

I'm not sticking up for Zonie as he can do fine for himself, but the gist of what I got when I read his post was...."You can't make a milling machine out of a drill press....no matter what you do to it." And I pretty much agree with that. Unless of course, you take one of the drill press's bolts off and "build" a completely different machine (ie: a milling machine) around the bolt....and call that "my drill press."

Your examples of the "Gingerly Series" are not even close to what the OP was asking to do.

And...more importantly, you haven't even addressed the cost of what it would take to "build" one of these "Gingerly" gizmo's.

Then, give a "for real" factor of what kind of time an individual would have to build one. As we all know "time is not free". Perhaps it is for some.....but it certainly is not for me.

No, I think comparing the Gingerly to a drill press is like comparing a milling machine to a hair salon. Both do something.....but not even close.

MHO

Dave

 

[44-henry]

The cost is whatever you can find scrap aluminum and an old electric motor. Basically nothing if you live where I do. As for the rest of it I never once said it was practical, only that it was possible. The videos I posted the link to are proof of that. I probably should have just kept quiet on this thread, lesson learned.

 

[Davemuzz]

That's OK. I wouldn't want to hire a gunsmith to work on my shooting equipment with "stuff" made out of "old electric motors" and "pieces of aluminum" and other metal just here 'n there "about the yard."

I'd rather take it to a guy who has a "real" lathe and milling machine. If he has those, I'm sure he has a drill press as well.

Dave

 

[44-henry]

I guess I always figured it was the guy operating the tool rather than the tool itself. No doubt aluminum isn't as durable as cast iron, but it doesn't mean the work would end up shoddy. I guess I figure anyone who would take the time to build one of those machines probably is going to learn how to work metal in the process.

I not only have a full machine shop in my basement, but I have access to a university lab with just about every machine tool imaginable, way more stuff than I would ever be able to afford in any event along with the knowledge of how to use all of it. Despite all of this I still have respect for someone who would build a machine from scratch and I most certainly wouldn't play down their accomplishment.

 

[sc45-70]

The only problem with building a lathe or milling machine from scrap is the fact that you need a lathe and milling machine to build it.
:idunno:
SC45-70

 

[mattybock]

I plan to start by way of gunstock checkering. Not really making anything, it's just a service, but I figure if I can price the work at 5 to 7 dollars per square inch of checkered space, I can make a fair bit.

Here's how the modern death industry works.
I am a funeral director, I need a job, so I head to the locak funeral home (owned by either Stewart Enterprises, Service Corp Int.)
I am offered a job - on their terms.
If I don't want to work for nearly nothing when told to do so, there are 80 more young funeral college students ready to sign on the dotted line.
The fact that people always die is of little weight when there are 24 hours in a day and a funeral only takes 1.5 hours of actual labor.

Now, embalmers - those guys make there own contracts. They get paid by the body serviced, not by the hour.

 

[mattybock]

Oh I know to be good takes time, that's not the issue.
The problem at it's core is that there are no jobs to be had for the youth of America. There is no foothold to begin with.
My goal is to begin my own job, rather than wait on a hiring deal, and so I have chosen gunsmith because I own most of the hand tools needed, lust not the few necessary power tools such as a mill and lathe.

The traditional factory job is dead and buried, ever 'burger flipping' jobs are hard to come by, and most go to the store manager's relatives or friends before they even thing of looking at the real applicants.

I have little money, so I figured I'd make my own power tools (mill in this case) and try and to get buy with that until I had my own cash to buy a cheap mill.

Seems that this light milling on a lathe thing might be good news.

 

[Davemuzz]

Hey,

Do what you want. Your final product will determine your future.

Dave

 

[Leatherbark]

You dont need a mill at this point. For now buy all parts and either pass the same price to the customer or mark up a profit on the price for the parts for shipping and handling. Is that not the way it is done?

Bob

 

[ron ward]

if you want to jump in head first, i know a fully equipped 35 yr. veteran with certification from trinidad that is about to retire. very active business around here and one that actually made him a comfortable living at the game, so it can be done. there are no other smith's in the local area, so his services will be missed dearly.
my advice to you is to not worry about equipment and such at your age and spend your money on getting an education in the trade, if you're serious about making a living at 'smithing. he started out working for a large well established local gunshop for several years, then cut out on his own. no established buisinesses like gander or cabela's or any other that has a gunsmith shop will give you a start without that piece of paper, insurance won't allow it and it is about the only way you are going to have a chance to get your foot in the door now-a-days.

 

[ApprenticeBuilder]

Couple things to consider,

First thing, your negative attitude about the job market sounds alot like your holding out for a management position.

Second thing, there are jobs avaliable, you just need to want it more than the other guy, right now the Dakotas have more work than people to do it, on the job training and such.

Last thing, if you dive in to this without the proper equipment and training, you could get somebody hurt, wreck a beautiful firearm, turn out a mediocre finished product, all of which will ruin any chances you have at building a solid reputation in your area.

probably the best chance you have is to locate a retireing gunsmith and apprentice yourself to him while you work a full time job and take formal classes.

Good Luck

 

[Tumblernotch]

Oh I know to be good takes time, that's not the issue.
The problem at it's core is that there are no jobs to be had for the youth of America. There is no foothold to begin with.
My goal is to begin my own job, rather than wait on a hiring deal, and so I have chosen gunsmith because I own most of the hand tools needed, lust not the few necessary power tools such as a mill and lathe.

The traditional factory job is dead and buried, ever 'burger flipping' jobs are hard to come by, and most go to the store manager's relatives or friends before they even thing of looking at the real applicants.

I have little money, so I figured I'd make my own power tools (mill in this case) and try and to get buy with that until I had my own cash to buy a cheap mill.

Seems that this light milling on a lathe thing might be good news.

If you have the necessary handtools to start out with, you're all set for equipment. After you make some sales or get some money for repairs you can start saving up for a decent mill or lathe. Unless you plan on mass producing locks or barrels, you won't need this stuff. They're nice to have but not necessary if you're building muzzleloaders. Buy quality files and chisels and learn how to be proficent with them. If you were to go to a gunsmithing school the first thing they'll do is hand you a file and tell you to take a chunk of iron and file it square.

I've done a little light milling with a drill press and believe me, it's not satisfying at all. Most are not heavy enough to start with and like it has been said the bearings are not up to the task. Even if you have a heavy press, if it has a Morse taper spindle, about 45 seconds after taking a cut the chuck will fall out. You gotta have a drawbar in it and I've never seen a $75 (or even more expensive) drill press that had one. I built a horizontal milling machine based on the 1816 North machine once that used a washing machine motor for power. It worked, but, working on the cheap like I had to, the upper works were too light and it chattered badly. If you build something like this, you're going to have to spend a bunch for the proper materials to do it right. I later bought a Harbor Freight Lathe/Mill for just under $500. It's heavily built and does what I need it to do most of the time, but it falls far short of the accuracy and speed I need. It's better than nothing and it was all I could afford (it was on sale). But your best bet for now is improving on the handtools you have and your basic skills. Look for a smith who may need an extra hand or sign up for a gunsmithing school. You may even want to try your hand working in a furniture or cabinet shop and get some training with woodworking first. Maybe try getting a job at a machine shop as an apprentice if there are no gunsmiths available. If you already have any of these skills, try to sell them to prospective employers. Show yourself eager to start at the bottom. Believe me, I've been there.

 

[mattybock]

herein is both the curse and the blessing!

In the spot of a town I live in, near south dallas, texas, there are not actual gunsmiths to be had. If fact there are no actual gunsmiths in about a 120 mile radius from me.

Plenty of pawn shops, retailers like basspro and cabelas and academy, and independent stores which make the bulk of their funds from their small shooting ranges, but no actual gunsmiths to repair or make parts or stock parts that aren't for the wannabe rambo crowd.

This means I cannot actually look over and learn from a gunsmith, but I'll have a natural monopoly! :shocked2: :grin:

In any case, gunsmithing is nothing new to me. Machining/milling/parts making is, but I have done wood work for a long while as a hobby. So I have a starting point.

I have a basic plan at this point thanks to everyone here;

Start with gunstock carving, pricing at $5 to $8 per square inch of work, not by the hour, saving up to buy a lathe to mill with an use as a lathe should be used, rather than a drill press which with more research seems more and more complicated and impractical.

 

[mattybock]

can you define 'light milling' with exact terms (how much is being taken off in how long of a pass, and with what metal?)
I have opted for a lathe to mill on, as it seems more practical.

 

[Tumblernotch]

Very light cuts, about .005" or less. Takes a loooong time if you have a lot of metal to remove. I've cut steel this way a very few times. I used to have a two directional vise on it which worked much like a milling table. The side pressure on the spindle is hard on the bearings and the tapered shaft on the chuck. It will loosen and be easily scored and if you're doing a side cut you're guaranteed to have the chuck fall out and either break the mill or damage the work, usually both. A drawbar will prevent at least that from happening and I've not seen one on your average drill press. You would also need to be able to lock down the spindle at a set depth and many cheap presses don't have that feature. A press can be used in a pinch but I wouldn't
recommend it.

Your idea to buy a lathe that you can attach milling equipment to is a good idea. I wouldn't recommend buying a combination lathe/mill like I have, especially if you plan on doing barrel work. You're very limited in what you can do. Mine has a short distance between centers and the milling table is too low (you have to remove the lathe crossfeed to use it on large pieces and requires a lot of blocking to mill small pieces that are too large to fit in the crossfeed vise). Get a machine with plenty of gear change options and as long a distance between centers as possible. My machine has 3 speeds on the lathe and 3 speeds on the mill (2 separate motors) and the lowest speed on the lathe is 500 rpm and 450 rpm on the mill. Too fast for much of the work. It's a real adventure to watch me knurl! And lastly, get a machine that is set up to cut threads and with is equipped with dialing that can be read in thousandths.

One more thing. Check the machine for backlash and if the tailstock is non adjustable (like my cheap machine), check that it allows the work to run true without you having to shim it. Good luck!
:thumbsup:

 

[sc45-70]

This may help
Here are some pictures of a milling attachment I have for one of my lathes.

I have a quarter clamped in the jaws to give you some idea of scale.
You will notice that it is pretty heavy duty as is the lathe it is attached to. A setup like this will do most gun parts. The only limiting factors are if it will fit in the jaws and the amount of travel and space you have.

A milling attachment like the one shown retails for around $500.00 but if you keep your eyes open they can be had used for under $200.00. I bought the one shown unused still in the box for $135.00.
Allthough not as practicle as a milling machine it does a good job on small parts.

SC45-70