Dueling Pistol set...

[toot]

Hi,
Toot, I guess your question is an opportunity to clear up a lot internet misinformation about these and other British dueling pistols.

They were both flintlocks at the time of the duel and made by Robert Wogdon of London. The picture shows one was later converted much later after the duel to percussion. Also note the photo of percussion gun was reversed in the image. Both guns had locks on the same right side. When originally made, these pistols were stocked to the muzzle in wood and had standard hair triggers adjusted by a gunsmith. They were made during the late 1780s or early 1790s. During their useful life, the forestocks were removed and replaced by heavy brass. This was done to make them more muzzle heavy, which reduced the risk of a nervous dueler shooting high. Wogdon actually curved the bores of his barrels downward to correct that problem. This was verified by radiography in Stewart and Bailey's recent book on Wogdon. Unfortunately, physics ruled the idea did not work. The ramrods are replacements. One of the original rods likely had a removable brass powder measure as a tip. This was unscrewed from the rod, reversed, and then screwed back on for loading. The measure was filled with powder, positioned upright, and the pistol was inverted muzzle down over it. It was slid all the way to the breech and then turned muzzle up so all the powder was delivered to the breech directly and none stuck to the barrel walls. The story that the pistols had secret unknown and scandalous set triggers is rubbish. Hair triggers were the norm on fully evolved British dueling pistols. Both Burr and Hamilton had fought duels previously and it is unlikely they were unfamiliar with hair triggers. Dr. Hossack, a physician that accompanied Hamilton was told by the mortally wounded man, and I quote from Hossack's description: " take care of that pistol; it is undischarged, and still cocked; it may go off and do harm. Pendleton knows that I did not intend to fire at him."

dave

I can't thank you enough for that history lesion you gave to me. what be came of the mortally wounded gentile mans weapon, what make was it if known?

 

[dave_person]

Hi Toot,
I believe the actual pistols are owned by Chase Manhattan Bank (currently known as J. P. Morgan Chase Bank) in New York. They were made by Robert Wogdon who was the most famous dueling pistol maker in London. They are 29 bore, which is about 54 caliber. One was converted to percussion ignition about the time of the Civil War. Much of the false mythology concerning the Hamilton-Burr duel and the pistols can be traced to American gun collector and author, Merril Lindsay. Lindsay was a great collector and authored some good books but he got some things very wrong. Moreover, the source of many inaccuracies in American history still perpetuated on the internet stem from popular 19th century writers and "historians" who sought to find unambiguous parables of morality in American historical events and were not terribly concerned about the reliability of their sources as long as the information fit their narrative.

dave

 

[nightwolf1974]

Someone put onto these...by Pedersoli....thoughts?

 

[toot]

was there a standard CALIBER for duelers and if so what was it? did both of the opponent's have to be the same CAL.? and what was the MFG. of most of them? and finely could a FRENCH dueler be used against an ENGLISH pistol?

 

[toot]

where was the opponent that died struck in his body? and if I missed it at what distance?

 

[dave_person]

Someone put onto these...by Pedersoli....thoughts?

Hi,
Those copy some sort of 19th century continental European design for dueling and target pistols. I assume the components are probably pretty good but the lock doesn't impress me at all. The case is completely wrong and what I call the jewelry pillow design, perfect for storing your wife's diamond tiara but not so good for pistols. Continental pistols were usually cased as in the photo below.

Precise cut outs in a wooden block were made and then covered fabric and the edges lined in leather.

dave

 

[dave_person]

Hi Toot,
No there was no standard caliber. Dueling pistols were made by many British and European makers each with their own style. All pistols were bought in pairs and the party challenged to the duel had the right to select the weapons. Both pistols were supposed to be identical and almost always were a pair owned or borrowed by the challenged party. Unlikely any duel would use different pistols. In the Hamilton-Burr duel I mentioned, Hamilton died in agony from his wound the day after the duel.

dave

 

[TFoley]

was there a standard CALIBER for duelers and if so what was it? did both of the opponent's have to be the same CAL.? and what was the MFG. of most of them? and finely could a FRENCH dueler be used against an ENGLISH pistol?

Here in context, the word 'pair' in a 'pair of dueling pistols' is literally what is implied by the word 'pair'. IOW, as identical in every respect as the hand of man could make at the time before mass production. Each participant took one of the pair, the 'injured' party taking the first choice. And by 'injured, I don't mean physically hurt in any way, but the person who feels that his honour has somehow been impugned by the other person. Think 'injured/hurt feelings'.

 

[TFoley]

Hi,
Those copy some sort of 19th century continental European design for dueling and target pistols. I assume the components are probably pretty good but the lock doesn't impress me at all. The case is completely wrong and what I call the jewelry pillow design, perfect for storing your wife's diamond tiara but not so good for pistols. Continental pistols were usually cased as in the photo below.

Precise cut outs in a wooden block were made and then covered fabric and the edges lined in leather.

dave

Sir, here in UK we call this type of box a 'Frenched box' to describe the extremely close-fitting method of retaining the pistols and accessories, as you say, made popular on the Continent, and much used by the likes of LePage, Kuechenreuter et al.

 

[toot]

Hi Toot,
No there was no standard caliber. Dueling pistols were made by many British and European makers each with their own style. All pistols were bought in pairs and the party challenged to the duel had the right to select the weapons. Both pistols were supposed to be identical and almost always were a pair owned or borrowed by the challenged party. Unlikely any duel would use different pistols. In the Hamilton-Burr duel I mentioned, Hamilton died in agony from his wound the day after the duel.

dave

thank you. so if I was challenged to a duel, the opponent would have to use my set of duelers, or would I have to use his? and would we each load our own?

 

[Grenadier1758]

The seconds would do the loading. The pistols would be replaced in the box in such a way as the principals would not know who loaded which pistol. The pistols would be brought to the principals for selection.

 

[denster]

For the OP looking to acquire a historically correct quality set of duelers. I would suggest entering a continuing search on gunbroker for the terms U.S. Historical society. Back in the early 1980's they contracted with Aldo Uberti to produce 2000 sets of the Hamilton Burr duelers. They sold them at the time as instant collectibles sure to appreciate to people with more money than sense. They even secured on loan the originals for Uberti's craftsmen to duplicate. They were made to an extremely high standard but of course were terrible investments. I have owned two sets that I purchased in the range of 1200 to 1400 which is an incredible bargain as that would not even cover parts of the quality used. They shoot great also no trick to keep all shots on a playing card at 15yds. The going rate on GB is 1100 to 1900 watch the other auction sight also. I believe somewhre on this sight I have pictures of mine.

here is a link. Cased Hamilton & Burr pistols

 

[toot]

The seconds would do the loading. The pistols would be replaced in the box in such a way as the principals would not know who loaded which pistol. The pistols would be brought to the principals for selection.

WOW now that is a rely fair way of doing it. did each opponent have there private physician at hand or one for both opponents'?

 

[toot]

were there ever any left handed duelers ever made? I guess not? unless both parties were LEFTIES?

 

[denster]

What functional reproduction handguns would be the best for recreating a 18th or 19th century dueling pistol set? Also trying to keep the price down under $1500.00 for this future (next year) project for the pistols. Opinions? Suggestions?

Here is a set of the Hamilton Burr duelers on gunbroker. Price is a bit high but you might want to shoot them an offer. Pedersoli / Wogdon Cased Dueling Pistols (1 of 1200, Hamilton vs Burr) - Antique Guns at GunBroker.com : 877586824

 

[mhb]

Here is a set of the Hamilton Burr duelers on gunbroker. Price is a bit high but you might want to shoot them an offer. Pedersoli / Wogdon Cased Dueling Pistols (1 of 1200, Hamilton vs Burr) - Antique Guns at GunBroker.com : 877586824

I looked closely at a set of the Pedersoli Hamilton-Burr pistols with the intention of buying them - until, on close inspection, I discovered that, in attaching the brass forearm weight, Pedersoli had used a screw from below... and drilled the threaded hole in the barrel completely through into the bore. That was a show stopper for me, and seemed an incredibly stupid thing to do, and was certainly NOT the way the original weights were attached. Just so you know...

mhb - MIke

 

[denster]

I looked closely at a set of the Pedersoli Hamilton-Burr pistols with the intention of buying them - until, on close inspection, I discovered that, in attaching the brass forearm weight, Pedersoli had used a screw from below... and drilled the threaded hole in the barrel completely through into the bore. That was a show stopper for me, and seemed an incredibly stupid thing to do, and was certainly NOT the way the original weights were attached. Just so you know...

mhb - MIke

I have heard that stated as a game changer in the past. Actually Pedersoli had nothing to do with the these pistols they were all made by Uberti who had access to the originals. The brass forend weights were added after the guns left Wogdon's shop. Probably a decade or so later and reflect the change in attitude toward dueling pistols. I have owned and shot two sets of these pistols. After the screw was added the bores were lapped and the screw has no effect whatsoever on anything except as a point of contention among modern day experts. I believe that Uberti duplicated the method of attachment on the originals. Remember he was being paid a considerable sum to exactly replicate the originals which he had in hand at the time and I doubt he would have jeopardized that commission over so simple a matter. If it matters to you fine but you will never be able to duplicate the quality of these pistols in todays world at the prices they sell for.

 

[Rudyard]

Interesting posts . As Ever Dave Person is an exellent observer. What you have to grasp is there where NO second grade duellers . They where bought by' Gentlemen ' Wealthy ones who might never use them but they where only of the very best quality . Butchers & Bakers didn't duel. Whatever they did in the Wild West .The whole thing was a very upper class affair.. Near enough isn't good enough . historically at least but what we do today is up to us . Follow Dave on this. I never aspired to make duellers . I have made pairs , Most better pistols where cased as a pair but dos'nt make them duellers .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Kansas Jake]

I think it is hard for us on this side of the pond to understand the class and to some extent the wealth distinctions of English society.

 

[516tcw]

I have heard that stated as a game changer in the past. Actually Pedersoli had nothing to do with the these pistols they were all made by Uberti who had access to the originals. The brass forend weights were added after the guns left Wogdon's shop. Probably a decade or so later and reflect the change in attitude toward dueling pistols. I have owned and shot two sets of these pistols. After the screw was added the bores were lapped and the screw has no effect whatsoever on anything except as a point of contention among modern day experts. I believe that Uberti duplicated the method of attachment on the originals. Remember he was being paid a considerable sum to exactly replicate the originals which he had in hand at the time and I doubt he would have jeopardized that commission over so simple a matter. If it matters to you fine but you will never be able to duplicate the quality of these pistols in todays world at the prices they sell for.

I agree with Denster, these pistols were manufactured by Uberti. I have owned 2 sets of these, and the quality is top notch. And they are a great bargain at today’s prices.
Bob