Dutch Oven PC

[crockett]

Dutcvh Ovens probably date back before 1840 but were they used in the wilderness?

 

Are you referring to the one's with the rim on the lid to hold coals?

Also, define date and place of "wilderness".

 

[Muskeg Stomper]

This has been addressed in great detail in the past and the late Mike Ameling did a lot of research on the subject. Do an advanced search in the forum for "dutch oven", specifically posts by "Mike Ameling". Make sure that you broaden the search to topics posted "Anytime". Now granted, Mike was just one guy expressing his opinion based on the results of his research but he pretty much convinced me that the answer was "no". Of course, never say never.

Sorry Jack, this answer was in regards to the original post, not towards your own question.

 

[gizamo]

There are recipes that call for the use of a Dutch Oven ... dating back into the latter part of the 18th century.

 

[Coot]

Dutcvh Ovens probably date back before 1840 but were they used in the wilderness?

What today is called a Dutch Oven goes back into the 18th c but the period reference may well be to a "bake oven" (which could also mean a stationary adobe-like beehive oven) or perhaps the term frequently used and clear in meaning, a "bake kettle". The term "dutch oven" has also been found to refer to what today we call a "reflector oven" which has in the past been described as a "tin kitchen" or a "tin oven". Re the use of dutch ovens in the wilderness, it would depend on the circumstances. A permanent trading post or frontier garrison would be logical places to find such a bulky & heavy item as well as in the baggage of a family moving to new lands. Anyone traveling by foot individually or in a small group would be very unlikely to devote so much of their load to such an item.

 

[gizamo]

There are many itterations of the term Dutch Oven. Everything from three legged spiders to reflector oven styles. Plus, the tight lidded top for coals on both flat and legged pots.

Regional thing, time specific???

 

[Coot]

I am not certain. The term "dutch oven" appears in the 1769 OED but the implement is older. A 17th c painting by the Dutch artist Pieter de Hooch shows a seated young cooking by a hearth. Depicted is a lipped lid on a three legged pot (which appears ceramic rather than iron) but which would be called a dutch oven by many today. I do not have the book but "Dutch Ovens Chronicled; Their Use in the United States" by John G. Ragsdale is considered the best work on the subject by some. I think that the term has more to do with Abraham Darby & his adaptation of Dutch casting methods early in the 18th c than with the item itself which seems to be most commonly called a baking kettle in the 18th c and more popularly a dutch oven in more modern times.

 

[wahkahchimaol.com]

"Dutch Ovens Chronicled" is a great little book. John Ragsdale does a great job with the history. one surprise for me is that the South African Boer "poitje" pot is essentially the design that would have been used by the Jamestown/Plimoth colonists. Around 1700 the Dutch developed a sand-casting method to make cooking pots more efficiently, hence the "Dutch" name. The modern version with the legs and flanged lids is apparently from the 1800 time frame and certainly in very wide use by 1850. All this according to the Gospel of Ragsdale.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

A bronze three leg flat top oven was found in pompei
The top and sides were all one piece with a cut out on the side to place and remove food

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I know that German troops in the AWI were using a "new" iron field oven for bread baking. So I don't know what was new about it, but it wouldn't be the first time "Dutch" was a bastardized form of "Deutsch" if these became what we call dutch ovens..., or so I thought,..., but if the OED mentions them prior, there must be something different about the AWI ovens the Germans were using. They may have been reflector ovens of some sort, and the journal writer used "iron" as tin in those days was tinned iron sheets.

LD

 

[George]

THE VIRGINIA GAZETTE
September 19, 1766
Sold at John Greenhow's store, near the Church, in Williamsburg,... Turkey oilstones and slips, ragstones, sithes and stones, iron Dutch ovens and skillets, salamanders, iron dogs, backs, mortars and pestles, and all sorts of cast iron...

THE SOUTH CAROLINA AND AMERICAN GENERAL GAZETTE
November 27, 1769
CHARLES-TOWN
WILLIAM GREAVES, Hath just opened a large ASSORTMENT of GOODS, imported to the last Vessels from GREAT BRITAIN, Consisting of a large Assortment of Ironmongery, ”¦. grid irons, cast iron Dutch ovens, brass and iron chaffing dishes...

THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE; AND COUNTRY JOURNAL
May 8, 1770
CHARLES-TOWN
JUST IMPORTED, in the Brig Prince of Wales, Thomas Mason, Master, from Philadelphia.... sundry sorts of cast iron, consisting of wash kettles, large and small pots, baking irons, sash weights, tea kettles, mortars and pestles, large and small, Dutch ovens , with rim'd covers & c. all of the best cast iron;

In the winter of 1779-80 James Nourse, Jr., traveled from Berkley, VA, to the Kentucky frontier. In his journal he made this entry:

"Sunday, [Jan 9th]
excessively cold, could not get ready to continue our journey until near eleven o’clock. crossed a run five or six times--mountains on each side. Camped by the north fork of Clinch a good cane brake. This day we so unfortunate as to break our Dutch oven and loose the lid in the snow.

Monday, [Jan. 10th]
Monday morning I returned back to look for the lid of the Dutch oven, but could not find it."

Spence

 

[omarick1948]

It doesn't matter to me if they are HC/PC or XYZ! __ I love using my Dutch Ovens at camp and all the free loaders I feed seem to like them too! Got tired of stick meat and stick bread many years ago!

Rick

 

[crockett]

What I was talking about are the three legged iron pot with the rimmed lid. Super cooking utensil- I agree- my question was whether anyone has any reference from Boone, etc while on a hunt inwhich there is any reference they took such a heavy thing with them.
And I agree- even if not pc- I'm keeping mine.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

I know the raised lip on the lid is 19th century. I have several, one is a domed lid, one is partially dome with a flat area on the lid, one is the common style with the lipped lid, and the last is a tiny iron pot converted into an single person dutch oven. For the large one with the domed lid I just use a piece of barrel band laid on top to sorta hold coals in place. You can't check results as much, but works better than no coals at all, or trying to get them to stay put.

LD

 

[DUSTY 14]

lewis and clark returned with their cast iron dutch ovens still in inventory. and many give paul revere credit for the lip around the lid. lots of fun and great meals no matter.

 

[crockett]

So- Lewis & Clark had one?

 

[bangfxr]

I have used one in my camp kitchen to make cannon ball bread, stews and a desert called "Dump Cake" which alot of the guys in my unit like to eat in the evening with coffee. Its worked well so far and I'll keep using it. One of the guys showed me a list of cooking implaments used in 1812 and one was iron casted pot with rimed lid and another was a iron casted bean pot with legs and lid. So draw your own conclusions but there appears that there was a "Dutch" oven of some design in use.

 

[JohnTulle]

Spence -

Nice documentation. Where did you find it? Seems like you have an excellent source of ads. I'd like to read through it just for fun. :grin:

When the newspaper ad came out, the advertiser assumed people knew what a Dutch oven was - because it was already a common item. This puts the date of their common use well before the date of the earliest ad you listed (1766). How available they were and at what date is another question. :hmm:

For me that settles the question of did Dutch ovens exist in the 18th Century. From there I think we can just use common sense and expect they would have been used in camp. Don't we camp with the most practical things today if we can?

No individual would want to pack one in, just like today, but pack horses and wagons were routine. That would be their equivalent of carrying them in the trunk or truck for us.

So it would appear to me the answer to the original question - Were Dutch Ovens used in the wilderness? - would be yes. It would also be correct not have one in camp. Maybe you just didn't own one, lost it, etc.

Thanks for your info. :thumbsup:

John

 

[George]

Where did you find it? Seems like you have an excellent source of ads.



This puts the date of their common use well before the date of the earliest ad you listed (1766). How available they were and at what date is another question. :hmm:

I subscribe to Accessible Archives which makes available many early sources, including all copies of Pennsylvania Gazette, South Carolina Gazette, Virginia Gazette, Maryland Gazette and quite a few more newspapers. You are right, reading through them is fascinating.

The earliest use of the terms in the newspapers in my database is this item form 1737:

"The Pennsylvania Gazette
May 12, 1737

PEACOCK BIGGER, Brazier, in Market Street near the Sign of the Indian King: MAKES and Sells all Sorts of Copper Work, viz. Tea kettles, Coffee-Pots, Warming-Pans, Copper-Pots, Saucepans, Dutch Ovens and Stew-Pans, Brass Kettles and any other Sorts of Copper Work when bespoke: He tins and mends old Copper Work and sells Tinwork at reasonable Rates, and gives ready Money for old Copper and Brass."

Notice that this is a copper Dutch oven. They also used the term for tin:

"THE SOUTH CAROLINA GAZETTE; AND COUNTRY JOURNAL
February 24, 1767
CHARLES-TOWN
Just imported in Capt. CURLINO. from London, and Capt. BAKER... tin and pewter cullenders, tin Dutch ovens , cheese toasters, candle extinguishers, horn lantborns... "

The items I posted first were for those specified as cast iron, one with a rimmed lid. It's obvious that the people of the 18th century didn't limit the use of the term to iron pots, although that may have been true of the first pots called a Dutch oven.

Spence

 

[JohnTulle]

Spence -

Thanks for the very prompt reply. I'll be looking up Accessible Archives. As a former museum director and lifelong history guy, I love digging into these things. I'd rather read about real people and events than fiction any day.

John