Dutch' s ratio 7:1 ???

[Skychief]

I've got a copy of Dutchs system around here somewhere but it eludes me at the moment.

I've decided to prep some patching with Ballistol/water. Is the ration 7:1, 6:1, other?

I did a quick search here as many guys have used his system but came up empty.

Never tried the "dry" patching but intend to.

What's the recommended ratio of ballistol to water?

Thanks kindly, Skychief :hatsoff:

 

[Billnpatti]

I went back and reviewed Dutch's System to be sure that I am telling you the correct way to determine what dilution is best for your rifle. According to Dutch, you start by adding 1 Oz. Ballistol to 4 oz. water. Soak a strip of patching material in this solution and set aside on a level surface to dry. Then add 1 more oz. of water to the mixture and soak another strip of patching. Keep doing this until you have added a total of 9 oz of water to your mixture. Be sure to mark each strip so you will know what dilution is on it. After all of the strips have dried, you are ready to test them. You test them by shooting 5 shots with each dilution at 50 yards. Measure your groups and you will be able to tell which dilution is correct for your rifle.

If you don't have a copy of Dutch's system, go this website and order one. You will be glad you did www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com

 

[Skychief]

Thanks very much Bill. :thumbsup:

I do have a copy from a couple years ago, but, it isn't where I think it should be. :haha:

I will use your good post and get started lubing some patching.

Thanks again, Skychief

 

[longcruise]

I don't see how that procedure is going to be easily repeatable.

It would seem that you are progressing from a 4:1 to a 9:1 mix, but each time you soak a patch you reduce your quantity of mixture but you are not reducing the amount of water with each additional ounce. Somewhere in the six different ratios may be the perfect combo, but you will never know exactly what it is.

I always made separate batches. Actually, I never saw much difference between a 5:1 up to a 10:1 ratio.

 

[Jim C]

I experienced a huge difference between 5 through 9 with my GPR. 4 and 5 were okay, 6 was the hands down winner, with 7,8, and 9 being terrible. 6 gave me a 5 shot group with 4 shots touching and the 5th one was about 3/4" south of those.

 

[necchi]

but each time you soak a patch you reduce your quantity of mixture but you are not reducing the amount of water with each additional ounce. Somewhere in the six different ratios may be the perfect combo, but you will never know exactly what it is.

That's true,, but at that phase of the experiment it works well for a large elimination. Once something close is found you go back to the best "area" of lube ratios to fine tune it.

Actually, I never saw much difference between a 5:1 up to a 10:1 ratio.

That's very surprising,, I found huge differences with end results of the patch ratios used. One very common mistake when using the dry lube system is squeezing the fabric to dry after it's run through the solution,, if all the solution is squeezed out then there's little to no lube left,, if that happens then of course a feller won't see much difference.

 

[longcruise]

That's true,, but at that phase of the experiment it works well for a large elimination. Once something close is found you go back to the best "area" of lube ratios to fine tune it.

At that phase? Why would you deliberately do shooting tests with unrepeatable data when it could just be done right the first time?

 

[Hunter John]

I agree with the first part; to achieve repeatable lube (and hence repeatable accuracy) results, you must mix a precise ballistol part:water part mixture. So imo once you soak a ticking strip in a mixture, you cannot add either more water (or Ballistol) to the remaining mixture as then you'll never know what the final ratio is.

Guys, keep in mind that you don't necessarily have to mix 1oz of Ballistol with 5oz of water to get a 1:5 mix. A 1/2oz of Ballistol with 2.5oz of water is also a 1:5 mix. With the price of Ballistol approaching $20 for 16oz., I understand that 1 6oz mix is quite a bit when performing your experiments, especially if it doesn't shoot accurately and it's rendered waste. Incidentally, in my experiments, I only used 1/2oz of Ballistol and adjusted my water parts up accordingly.

I only thoroughly tested 1 of my 5 sidelocks so far (54cal Trade Rifle) and also found the sweet spot to be 1:6. Any less water and the groups opened up and any more water and it was to difficult to load. The 1:5 & 1:6 groups were close, but the 1:6 groups seemed to be more consistent.

In any event, I found that altering the Ballistol component definitely affected my groups.

 

[M. De Land]

Well one good group tells you nothing statistically.
Repeat the same test of all the strips at least five times, ten would be better and average them making sure the barrel is clean with each new test strip sequence.
If test strip #6 makes the best group even three times then you are probably on to something but one random tight group means very little in my opinion.

 

[Jim C]

I agree, you are correct. I am by no means finished with it, but only beginning. There's only so much time in a day, and unfortunately, finding days to spend at the range is all too elusive as well. I was just commenting on the extreme differences in the size of the groups I shot through the entire range of mixtures from 4 through 9 (which took the better part of 4 or 5 hrs). From an almost one hole group with the best to an 8 inch group or bigger with the worst. No doubt about it, there is much left to be done. :wink:

 

[Hunter John]

"From an almost one hole group with the best to an 8 inch group or bigger with the worst."

Yeah, really amazing how just changing the water:ballistol mix has that much of an effect. Of course it's close to impossible to everything constant as you only change the lube mix.

One day I shoot at the range at 7am on a Sat morning when it's 55 degrees after a long week of work and a not to friendly conversation with the Mrs. :yakyak: The next time I shoot at the range on a Wed afternoon when it's 80 degrees surrounded by the pleasant company of friends. Generally speaking, guess which day I shoot better?

Yup, can never keep everything constant. Sometimes the least of my worries is whether the 5:1 or 7:1 lube mix will shoot better. Heck, just happy to get out and make smoke :wink:

 

[Jim C]

:thumbsup:

 

[necchi]

At that phase? Why would you deliberately do shooting tests with unrepeatable data when it could just be done right the first time?

well I guess for me that tiny fraction of oil missing when I pull a first strip out then add water making the next one 6 to .997 then 7 to .986 and so on isn't a real deal breaker when I go back to make a straight mix patch.
What I want to determine initially is: will a lot of oil or very little oil left in the fabric be best with the other variables of my load combo.
I may find that 7-1 and 8-1 patches are working better then the others,, now I go back and make those two and start another bench session playin with the powder charge,,
The lube mix is just one part of the system.

Again even when I use the cheating method of mixing instead of straight,, my results are very different with each patch/lube mix and not like this;

Actually, I never saw much difference between a 5:1 up to a 10:1 ratio.

:idunno: :v

 

[Dr5x]

You all must bear in mind that beside the variable of shots of water to shoats of Ballistol you also have the variable caused by How tightly you hold the patching when you stip the excess mix from it before you set out to dry.
Charlie's 6 to 1 mix may be dryer than Billy's 7 to 1 mix because charlie really strips out the excess and Billy doesn't hold it as tightly.
What is beginning to cause me some distress is that the Dry Patch System is merely an after thought The System of selecting the precise compressed thickness of patching for YOUR rifle. I used to promote the Dry Patch Thing separately and maybe should go back to that.. Hesus!

Dutch

 

[Dr5x]

Dutch does not suggest a 7 to 1 ratio mix.
I suggest that each person figure out what is the best ratio for each rifle.
I included the suggestion of beginning with a 4 to 1 mix and then getting progressively drier so that people running the experiment would see the dramatic effect a drier patch could make.

I didn't have a flyer during the last three years I was able to shoot. Most people. I am told usually get a flyer about 20% of the time. If the flyer isn't caused by a hangover or nervous twitch, what could cause them?



Dutch

 

[Rifleman1776]

Most people. I am told usually get a flyer about 20% of the time.

I used to shoot 'X' stick at the championship matches in Friendship. I cannot count the number of 49's I shot. With a winning group working one always seemed to head into the 9 ring. One of five is 20%.

 

[Dr5x]

Sky Chief
Thereis no Recommended ratio. You have to figure it out for your rifle.
People start getting pleased with 6 to 1 and above.. My two rifles like 7 to 1 but that means nothing as your rifle might really shine with 8 to 1.
I couldn't load 8 to 1 easily and 9 to 1 required hammering.
Your experience may, and probably should, vary.

Dutch

 

[Dr5x]

Once upon a time, many years ago, A SWAT team member from somewhere in Georgia told me that they never fire any rounds from cartridges that they load themselves.
He Told me that people on his team would purchase 1,000 copper jacketed projectiles and in the loading process would discard about 800 of them.
.
all of these bullets measured the same except in one way.
Weight.
I had already come to the belief that weighing out the lead balls would be equally important for patched ball riflemen.

If you do the exact same thing five times in a row and one acts differently I just could be a weight variation.

It took various government to some time to learn that tracer rounds will show you where your regular rounds are NOT going because of weight differences.

I think weight matters

Dutch

 

[gearheart]

I think you meant to say that they never fired cartridges EXCEPT for those they loaded themselves. Factory loaded rounds allow for variations that a sniper would call unacceptable.

 

[Skychief]

Thanks for your replies here Dutch. They are much appreciated. :thumbsup:

Best regards, Skychief