Early Plainsmen Era 1841 to 1860

[Ohio Joe]

I have often wondered why we don't see this gap filled? I guess in a way we do with the Oregon Trail, and 49'er gold rush,,, but as far as events go, I just don't know of any?

It would be nice to see folks gather around for an encampment that would cover this time period. It could be done under the guise of the start of a settlement. A wagon train. An early buffalo hunter encampment? I'm sure there's more?

It would be an opportunity to not only use the muzzleloading rifles, but the revolvers as well in an exceptable time period. Much like our rendezvous using only single shot pistols. I don't advocate the use of any breech loaders.

Maybe there is something out there I've missed? Now I'm not talking about the Cowby Action Shoots. They're to "Hollywoody". I'm talking historical events of this time that could grow into reenactment events. The possibilities for the non indian ladies and kids to get involved would be much more open.

Any thoughts?

 

[Liver eatin’ Johnson]

Hmm... :hmm: Might just have something there. In terms of activities it might be more living history than competition but you could have foraging, fire starting, cooking, costume and wagon events. Smoothbore trail walk simulating sage hen and grouse hunting. How about a stuck wagon pull or a wagon wheel repair demonstration? Those folks certainly learned to get by and survive or die trying. Good idea :thumbsup:

 

Does someone resemble a persona of the timeframe from 1840 to 1860? Like, having a Hawken-style rifle and 1851 Colt Navy? What clothing would be sort of accurate for this time-slot?

Tried to find literature about it, but there is nearly nothing (at least at my library).

I posted this thread on 10-4 @ the "Clothing" chapter and I got some good suggestions concerning literature.

It would be nice to have a chapter with this time-slot, combining smoke-poles with early cap & ball revolvers. :imo:

 

[bwkelly]

It's a great period in history. I took a class on the pre-1860 west a few years ago. While I didn't agree with the professor or her book, the research I did for a paper really made me interested in this period. I was also lucky enough to find a copy of "Firearms of the American West, 1803-1865" at my library. That got me going as well. A great book, if anyone here hasn't seen it. Anyhow, hands-on stuff would be much more fun. It is too bad that this era is overlooked by most reenactors. It would be fun to shoot cap n' ball revolvers and muzzleloading rifles and shotguns with other people who were interested in recreating the period. It could also incorperate some trekking. There were guys who went out to California in '49 and '50 by walking. It probably wasn't the best idea at the time, but hey, they wanted to get rich.
:m2c:

 

[Ohio Joe]

When you think about it, there is probably quite a few of us who do the Rendezvous and a lot of our equipment could be used in this time period. My wall tent for one thing. The campfire grill. Probably all the chairs and tables. I really don't see where there would be a lot that couldn't be used?

What would we call this time period event if we gathered for it like we do the Rendezvous? I think there is some potential for this.

 

Anything you use for rondys can be transferred to this era. One of the "RULES" of reenacting is that anything from an earlier era can be transferred to a latter era.

Fact is, much of our rondy equipment actually came from this era, not the pre-1840 we suppose.

Any flint firearm wil work, as will most percussions except for later year model dated military arms.

Mexican War is covered in this era. There are several Mex War groups out there and they have a wealth of documentation.

For us "buckskiners" it is just an addition of equipment we would be allowed to use and be PC. Late model Bowie knives, Colt revolvers in the early models, square one pole tents. Most of the stuff that gets argued over for being technically out of time frame by only a few years at the pre-1840 events.

One of the groups I belong to was invited to do a demonstration at a local site that had an 1845 date framework. We were in Mid Tn and usually do a srict 1780 era. We had a blast! Got to use all of our toys!

:results:

 

[Ravenx]

I, for one, stand up and applaud Ohio Joe for bringing this up. This is something I've thought about myself. I think it would be fun!

Clothing of the era would be fairly easy on the pocketbook. About the most expensive thing would be the boots. Most illustrations I've seen depict "mule ear" boots. A reasonable facsimile can be found pretty easy at western wear stores. Hats are of the "slouch hat" style, the more beat-up the better. Canvas pants and suspenders. Linen or wool shirt. You're dressed!

Fixin's for grub would be easy and still available at all the stores. Salt pork, bacon and flour. Someone could rustle up a few rabbits before an event to make a rabbit stew in a cast-iron pot over the fire. All those cast-iron cookwares can be had cheap from Cabela's.

Man, it would be great! Bring out a GPR and a 1851 Colt.

A lot of what happened on the wagon trails has been forgotten. I've read about a small wagon train that died on the trail due to an outbreak of cholera I think it was. Imagine that! Here you are on your way west, hundreds of miles from anywhere, everyone is sick, some already dead, no hope of help. I read that the trails were dotted with discarded furniture and belongings that had to be gotten rid of to cut down on weight. People died or got killed along the way. They had to bury them right there. There was a wagon train that got bushwhacked by white men dressed up like Native Americans around Utah. Called the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Who knows how many trains of two or three wagons just up and disappeared. Got lost and died of thirst or hunger. Maybe got ambushed. Maybe one wagon went off into a canyon and that was the guy who knew the trail and the rest died trying to get unlost. I mean, we're talking a heckuva drive by car on modern interstate highways with more gas stations, Stuckey's, and towns than you can shake a Hawken at. Imagine it by wagon, going, what, maybe 20 or 30 miles a day depending on circumstances? Maybe less? No just pulling the wagon off to grab a pecan nut log and a burger at Stuckey's or a box of chicken to go from the Colonel's.


This is a great idea! How do we get started? And keep from cowboy action shootifying it up?

 

[Ohio Joe]

To All Interested,

One way we might get started with something like this is to charter an Association and call it, maybe; (Early Plainsmen Association 1841 to 1860).

Lay out a Club Constitution with By-Laws, and a Program of Events to include specified types of firearms, and suggested shooting matches, as well as suggested themes for gatherings which could be a portrayal of many historical events of that time period?

We would need a board with officer's either elected or appointed to get started. And we would need a headquarter's. I think I could supply us with a headquarter's, a home base so to speak. What's your thoughts?

 

[bwkelly]

Sounds like a good idea. An organization would definitely help to spread the word. I'm sure others would see it and be more than willing to jump on board. I myself would gladly take part however I could. I often go to my state's historical society library, which has more documentation on the period than I could probably ever read, so I'd be more than willing to do research on the period in my free time if it would be of any help.

 

[Ohio Joe]

Yes. I think any information gathered about the time period would be of great value to this fledgling Association we would like to start.

I thought I might begin work on some rough draft's of a Mission Statement, and Bi-Laws, for review. We have to start somewhere with something. I would encourage those who are interested to do the same. :thumbsup:

 

I'm with you and already started to get info about it.

 

[Ohio Joe]

Thanks, RobW

I think we may have ran into our first snag? What do we do about brass frame revolvers? I'm sure there is a lot of us out there with brass frame revolvers that would fit into this time period if they were steel framed. If we ignore this we would be starting out on the wrong foot since they didn't exist until the Civil War as I understand it.

Should we extend the time frame to 1865, and stay with muzzle loading firearms only?

What should we do? :hmm:

 

[bwkelly]

While bumping the accecptable period up to 1865 may be a sensible idea, this brings up a whole host of other issues. In regards to revolvers, this would allow the use of the replica Remingtons on the market, which are copies of the model introduced in 1863, not 1858 as they are advertised, and Colts made after 1860. This, I think, would be a good move.

While shooters with brass framed revolvers certainly shouldn't be excluded, most southern producers of brass frame revolvers were basically artisans and not large scale manufacturers. I was looking through my copy of "Civil War Guns", and it looks like Griswald and Gunnison made the most, at about 3,600, between 1862 and 1864. So basically, compared to Colt, who delivered around 23,000 1860 Armys to the US gov't between 1861 and 1862 alone, there were few brass frame revolvers to begin with. Most of the manufacturers seemed to have been located in Georgia, so I assume that the majority these revolvers went to eastern units. There were manufacurers in Texas, but it looks like their combined output was quite small, maybe less than 1500. All were issued as they came out of the factory, there were no civilian sales. Some may have made it out west in this period in the hands of deserters, etc, but they would have been few and far between. Also, many modern made brass-frames are not reproductions of anything. There were never brass framed Remingtons, etc.

It sounds like this proposed organization would incorporate both shooting and living history. I would suggest that for a living history event the brass frames should be out of sight. A lot of guys going west in this period had revolvers, and they are mentioned in primary sources, but I'm sure they were not carried by everyone. This shouldn't be a hindrance to owners of brass frames who want to pack iron at a living hisory event. I don't know many C&B revolver enthusiasts who own just one, so I'm sure that there would be plenty of steel frames to go around. For events that are strictly shooting, brass frames should be ok.

Before 1860, the pre-1859 Sharps rifles and Jenks carbines would have been out west in the early to mid 50's. The Hall would have been out there throughout the whole period we are dealing with Other than The Rifle Shoppe Hall parts, which are more money than I'd be willing to spend for a gun that leaks excessive gas when fired, nobody makes reproductions of any of these, so keeping it to muzzleloading only before 1860 shouldn't be a problem.

Although I don't think many made the trip, there were a few Henrys and Spencers in the west before 1865. I have seen them mentioned in primary sources, but probably because they were more of a rarity than a common item. There were probably a fair number of 1859 or 1863 model Sharps out there, mainly in military configurations. I will have to reference Frank Seller's book for exact numbers, but I think fewer than 100 sporting rifles on the 1859 action were made during the war. Anyway, if the time frame was opened up to 1865, it may be fair to include some of these, and only at events with a post-1860 date, but I certainly would not want them to dominate events. Maybe one Henry or one Spencer at the most. These guns are more in the realm of CAS anyway. Things should be chiefly muzzleloading.

Where do the rest of you stand? If any of my facts are wrong, please feel free to correct me.

 

[Ravenx]

Ohio Joe, sign me up! If any other Arizonans are here, we could form a chapter here. I can help out with the history part of it. I'm a history buff and have a lot of books on this period.

One thing that would be nice is to hold things to the authenticity test, but allow some leeway in regards to some rifles and pistols, such as the Great Plains Rifle. That rifle looks enough like a Hawken. And the Blue Ridge rifles by Cabela's embody the spirit pretty well also. I think it's the spirit as well as the authenticity that we would want. Without getting into some of the ridiculous things I see dominating cowboy action shooting, such as the "two handgun" to compete rule when very, very few people carried two revolvers in cartridge days. And the allowing of the Winchester 97 just because it was in the movie The Wild Bunch.

 

I think the brass framed revolver concern would solve itself. As (I think) there will be lots of shooting (thats what we are primarily in there, aren't we?) the brass frames will weaken out quiet fast. Mostly the cylinder arbor in the brass frame gets loose. No accuracy whatsoever remains. So, after shooting out a brass frame, to get a steel frame would be wise.

I would keep the whole thing informal. I saw some CAS matches and I must say, it's quiet overblown (sorry, SASS-members). Everybody runs around with a straight and an angeled cross-draw holster, a lever action, and a shotgun. Looks like everyone in the west was very wealthy to buy this arsenal.

I suggest that anyone with either one rifle, or a shotgun, or a revolver could participate. No requirements to spend thousends of dollars for equipment, having the actions slicked up for "competition". As soon as it gets there, the fun gets out :imo:

I'm looking forward to further discussions, this is REALLY interesting.

By the way, wouldn't it be helpful to have a "list" of period occurences, like the '49 California gold-rush, the '57 Mountain Meadows Massacre etc. It might clarify how narrow or wide the "diversity" should be.

 

[GobblerKnob]

All this excitement is contagious! :thumbsup:

 

[Ohio Joe]

I would agree that we should keep things simple and as inexpensive as we can. I think impossing too many rules would lead to disharmony from the outset.

I would like to see us keep things within the time period if we were at an encampment and putting the history of the time out for the public to see.

The shooting competitions should be rather informal. Allow the brass frame revolvers, and the 1858 Remington's that are copies of the 1863. Allow the 1861, and '62 Colt's, as well as the Rogers & Spencer's. Keep it muzzle loading only and it's still within the spirit of the organiztion and time period when muzzle loaders ruled.

I think that we're all after the same goal and that is to create something that doesn't seem to exist by using these M/L rifles and revolvers together as they once were. A Hawken and a Colt? A Leman and a Remington? Why not? It happened, I'm sure. Let's just make sure we stay away from the "Cowboy Action Shooting." We'll create our own competition's.

I got to get back to work so I'll pick up later on this. Thanks to all.

 

[Rebel]

And ya could be E.P.A.S., Early Plainsman Action Shooters, not to be confused with the Environmental Protection Agency Sh*t's

 

[Ohio Joe]

I think we have two schools of thought about this. 1. The shooting competitions. 2. The historical gatherings of this time period. I think there is a place for both.

Early Plainsmen Association of Shooters, (1841 to 1865, Period Muzzle Loaders Only)

Early Plainsmen Association of Reenactors, (1841 to 1860, Period Muzzle Loaders Only)

As Muzzle Loading Director of the club I belong to, I just finished our muzzle loading 2005 schedule that will be released this Sunday afternoon. I did not include any shooting competition for the (1841 - 1865) time period, but I have enough open dates to do so. I want to visit with the members who have just lately really started to turn out for our monthly competitions. We're getting our club turned around. :thumbsup:

I thought I would schedule something in May, June, or July to see what kind of response we get with a rifle/revolver match. I thought something on the lines of 10 shots with each at various ranges and targets.

Maybe some shooting from behind a false wall? A log, wagon wheel, tree, something like that with the rifle. As for the handgun I thought maybe a walking range of silhouettes, and gongs?

These won't be timed events however. Point values will be given to targets according to difficulty and we'll see where that takes us.

I'll ask those who intend to compete to dress in period type clothing. There buckskins will work if they'd like. All loading will be done from the pouch as we say. I think I'll make it a two round (10 shots per round 5 & 5) event.

I'll just have to see how it plays out. Anyway, these are some more thoughts on it. :hmm:

 

[Ravenx]

Sign nme up! Any Arizonans here? This has a lot of fun-factor just waiting to happen!