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My hypothesis is that many every day people went to coned muzzles to ease the entry of imprecisely manufactured nonstandardized projectiles. And of course, a stick to put something down the hole would have followed imprecisely manufactured projectiles as needed, just as coning a muzzle would have.
 
Yeah I warned that the "more authtic then thou"club would come out both arms swinging.And so it seams. The argument always goes thus...."They didnt have them since they didn't write it down...well anything written down that looks like this must be misunderstood...well this one written down doesn't prove any one else had one"...And you shouldn't use one since there was no pizza at valley forge, and nobody put a toga on thier stirup.
 
Aimed at no one...

Without any definitive documentation - People often suggest that short starters were used, because it is only "common sense". If common sense is the criteria for this speculation, then I suggest that common sense would dictate that using a patch and ball combo, that could be pushed down the barrel without having to resort to an additional, specialized piece of equipment that had no other purpose, would make the most sense.

I can load one of my rifles by grabbing the ramrod about 6 inches from the end and forcing the ball inside the barrel. From there, it can be easily pushed the rest of the way. And even though my flintlock is coned, I still grab the rod a few inches from the end and start the ball.

I've often said that today we are "gadget" happy and we seem to want a specialized tool for every little function. Again, common sense would dictate that the fewer gadgets you had to carry in the field the better. Especially, if you were in danger and had to load fast - something they had to think about back then - but we don't today. I do give the people of the past the benefit of the doubt that they had that plenty of common sense.
 
Claude said:
I can load one of my rifles by grabbing the ramrod about 6 inches from the end and forcing the ball inside the barrel. From there, it can be easily pushed the rest of the way. And even though my flintlock is coned, I still grab the rod a few inches from the end and start the ball.
Ditto, except my barrel isn't coned and I can still accomplish the task without a starter.
 
tenngun said:
Yeah I warned that the "more authtic then thou"club would come out both arms swinging.And so it seams. The argument always goes thus...."They didnt have them since they didn't write it down...well anything written down that looks like this must be misunderstood...well this one written down doesn't prove any one else had one"...And you shouldn't use one since there was no pizza at valley forge, and nobody put a toga on thier stirup.
I acknowledged that there were some in use at a very particular time for a very particular application. Unfortunately, it was NOT general usage.

Not sure what else you want or why you get your knickers in a bunch when other people prefer to use documentation rather than conjecture...
 
Don't own no knickers,caint say I ever got my breechclot in a wad over what some one put in a shooting pouch. Howsomever when I here someone look at documentation for something and say well that dont prove other people used it I have to chuckle. I think of the fellow who wrote for the royal socity that heaver then air flight was impossible,he wrote that 2 mo after the write brothers flew.When asked about the write flyer he said it didn't count since it wasn't useful for anything. About 23000 years ago some one in alaska made a moose antler scraper.So we know someone was in alaska 23000 years ago.I dont think that that was the very first scraper ever made in alaska so I would say folks were ther before 23000 years ago.I don't think that short starter was the very first made,so we can say they predate 1808.So dreaming up some date in your head and saying thats when they were first used cant count as documentation.All it can count as is a date dreamed up in your head.By this we know that it was used in 1808,to argue it wasn't used in america,or the rockies or florida is at best a joke.Unless ther was some sort of wall preventing something known in England being learned in America....I can see the next debate now...short starter were used but only with flat tops,never rounded and never out of horn or antler.Riggghhhtt
 
You prove my point.
All the examples are forms of EVIDENCE for a particular thing at a particular time in a particular place. Just to speculate that something "must have been" is not evidence, it is an opinion. Until evidence come to light, it remains an opinion (hypothesis).

Just because something was used in a particular place and time in history does not mean it was universally used or available. The perfect example is the fire-piston. Used and available during the 19th century? Yes. Used and available in America. No.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_piston
Fire pistons have been used in South East Asia and the Pacific Islands as a means of kindling fire for years. They are found in cultures where the blow pipe is used as a weapon and this suggests they may have developed out of blow pipe construction. Their use has been reported from Burma, the Malay Peninsula, Indo-China, Borneo, Sumatra, Java, Kalimantan, Sulawesi, the Philippines, Madagascar [2] and South India.[3]

An 1876 New York Times article[4] reported the discovery of the earliest date of its use in the west. It reports an address by a Professor Govi that claimed a book written by Father Boscovich, of Rome in 1755, De Litteraria Expeditione per Pontifican Ditionem, (The Clever Mechanism) makes the claim that the fire piston was invented in 1745 by Abbe Augustin Ruffo. This report also claims that the modern fire piston was reinvented independently in the west through experiments with the air gun and not modeled after Asian designs.

It is recorded that the first fire piston made its wider debut in front of scientists in 1802 and was patented in 1807 simultaneously in both England and France. Fire pistons, or fire syringes as they were called then, were popular household tools throughout Europe during the early nineteenth century until the safety match was invented in 1844.

The fire piston may have inspired Rudolf Diesel in his creation of the diesel engine around 1892.[5][6]


And yet, their presence somewhere on the globe during the 18th-19th century, results in their being used by some Fur Trade guys because "they were around".
 
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I've seldom read such convoluted reasoning. Anyway, contrary to conventional wisdom, common loading techniques were, in fact, written down. Here's a couple:

"”¦ He blows through his rifle to ascertain that it is clear, examines his flint, and thrusts a feather into the touch-hole. To a leathern bag swung at his side is attached a powder-horn; his sheath-knife is there also; below hangs a narrow strip of homespun linen. He takes from his bag a bullet, pulls with his teeth the wooden stopper from his powder-horn, lays the ball in one hand, and with the other pours the powder upon it until it is just overtopped. Raising the horn to his mouth, he again closes it with the stopper, and restores it to its place. He introduces the powder into the tube; springs the box of his gun, greases the "patch" over with some melted tallow, or damps it; then places it on the honey-combed muzzle of his piece. The bullet is placed on the patch over the bore, and pressed with the handle of the knife, which now trims the edge of the linen. The elastic hickory rod, held with both hands, smoothly pushes the ball to its bed; once, twice, thrice has it rebounded. The rifle leaps as it were into the hunters arms, the feather is drawn from the touch-hole, the powder fills the pan, which is closed. “Now I’m ready,” cries the woodsman”¦.
Audubon Journals


"Barking off squirrels is delightful sport, and, in my opinion, requires a greater degree of accuracy than any other. I first witnessed this manner of procuring squirrels whilst near the town of Frankfort. The performer was the celebrated Daniel Boone. We walked out together, and followed the rocky margins of the Kentucky River, until we reached a piece of flat land thickly covered with black walnuts, oaks, and hickories. As the general mast was a good one that year, squirrels were seen gamboling on every tree around us. My companion, a stout, hale, and athletic man, dressed in a homespun hunting-shirt, bare-legged and moccasined, carried a long and heavy rifle, which, as he was loading it, he said had proved efficient in all his former undertakings, and which he hoped would not fail on this occasion, as he felt proud to show me his skill. The gun was wiped, the powder measured, the ball patched with six-hundred-thread linen, and the charge sent home with a hickory rod. We moved not a step from the place, for the squirrels were so numerous that it was unnecessary to go after them. Boone pointed to one of these animals which had observed us, and was crouched on a branch about fifty paces distant, and bade me mark well the spot where the ball should hit. He raised his piece gradually, until the bead (that being the name given by the Kentuckians to the sight) of the barrel was brought to a line with the spot which he intended to hit. The whip-like report resounded through the woods and along the hills in repeated echoes. Judge of my surprise, when I perceived that the ball had hit the piece of the bark immediately beneath the squirrel, and shivered it into splinters, the concussion produced by which had killed the animal, and sent it whirling through the air, as if it had been blown up by the explosion of a powder magazine. Boone kept up his firing, and before many hours had elapsed, we had procured as many squirrels as we wished ...for you must know, kind reader, that to load a rifle requires only a moment, and that if it is wiped once after each shot, it will do duty for hours. Since that first interview with our veteran Boone I have seen many other individuals perform the same feat."
Another from the Audubon Journals, this one describing Daniel Boone.

The point I'm getting at here is ---I really don't care if you use a short starter, bullet board, aluminum range rod, etc. Just don't represent it as historically accurate until PROVEN otherwise. When I head out to the hills to do some shooting, camping, whatever, I try to replicate or recreate the ways these activities were originally done, to the best of my abilities. For me, it's a learning experience---limiting myself to what the people I try to emulate carried, and doing the things they did. Like the above quote, if it's good enough for Daniel Boone, it's good enough for me. That's what makes it fun for me, your milage, as they say, may vary.

Rod
 
Rod L said:
...then places it on the honey-combed muzzle of his piece... Audubon Journals
This very much suggests to me that the barrel wasn't coned either.
 
Black Hand said:
Rod L said:
...then places it on the honey-combed muzzle of his piece... Audubon Journals
This very much suggests to me that the barrel wasn't coned either.
Not necessarily - the coning is often put in while "honey combing the muzzle - which included coning the grooves as well as the lands or in a light coning of a muzzle the grooves should still be there as anyway...
 
tenngun said:
I don't think that short starter was the very first made,so we can say they predate 1808.So dreaming up some date in your head and saying thats when they were first used cant count as documentation.All it can count as is a date dreamed up in your head.By this we know that it was used in 1808,to argue it wasn't used in america,or the rockies or florida is at best a joke.
According to this line of thinking, we can use the following reference to prove that "telescopes" were commonly used on flintlocks throughout America, prior to 1808.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/1301025/

So, based on this evidence, George Washington "could" have used a scope. After all, we cannot prove he didn't?

This will certainly change the face of reenacting. :wink:
 
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LaBonte said:
Not necessarily - the coning is often put in while "honey combing the muzzle - which included coning the grooves as well as the lands or in a light coning of a muzzle the grooves should still be there as anyway...
Hmmm.... That's a different take on that phrase. I had always assumed he was just referring to the shape of the barrel. Barrel is 8-sided and honey comb is 6-sided, but they look very similar.

Spence
 
In the Portuguese book The Perfect Gun, 1718, the authors say something which makes you think they were talking about a short starter of some sort, though they don't actually mention it. They are discussing various inventions made by their "Old Masters" from years gone by, attempting to improve the way guns shoot.

Others made barrels with rifling inside, some with more, others with less rifling, all of them deep and twisted in the form of a spiral. These were loaded by putting the bullet in a little piece of leather of a thin glove, folded only once, dipped in oil, and thus it was pushed down to the bottom in such a manner that the bullet may not lose its roundness;....

Others ram them with an iron ramrod, hammering the bullets until they enter the muzzle one palm's length, so that they can push them to the bottom with the ramrod....
Do they mean a separate tool was used to hammer them in one palm's length? Seems logical.

Spence
 
George said:
In the Portuguese book The Perfect Gun, 1718, the authors say something which makes you think they were talking about a short starter of some sort, though they don't actually mention it. They are discussing various inventions made by their "Old Masters" from years gone by, attempting to improve the way guns shoot.

Others made barrels with rifling inside, some with more, others with less rifling, all of them deep and twisted in the form of a spiral. These were loaded by putting the bullet in a little piece of leather of a thin glove, folded only once, dipped in oil, and thus it was pushed down to the bottom in such a manner that the bullet may not lose its roundness;....

Others ram them with an iron ramrod, hammering the bullets until they enter the muzzle one palm's length, so that they can push them to the bottom with the ramrod....
Do they mean a separate tool was used to hammer them in one palm's length? Seems logical.

Spence
It suggests the "over-sized bullet" scenario to me. As to what was used or whether it was the iron rammer that was hammered upon, is unclear from the passage.
 
George said:
In the Portuguese book The Perfect Gun, 1718, the authors say something which makes you think they were talking about a short starter of some sort, though they don't actually mention it. They are discussing various inventions made by their "Old Masters" from years gone by, attempting to improve the way guns shoot.

Others made barrels with rifling inside, some with more, others with less rifling, all of them deep and twisted in the form of a spiral. These were loaded by putting the bullet in a little piece of leather of a thin glove, folded only once, dipped in oil, and thus it was pushed down to the bottom in such a manner that the bullet may not lose its roundness;....

Others ram them with an iron ramrod, hammering the bullets until they enter the muzzle one palm's length, so that they can push them to the bottom with the ramrod....
Do they mean a separate tool was used to hammer them in one palm's length? Seems logical.

Spence
People shooting in competition may have used over-sized balls, but anyone in the "field" would be dead if they had to hammer every load. Besides, lose your hammer and your out of business. I guess if you're reenacting shooting targets in competition, you need one.
 
...Befides the method of loading a rifle barrel, by driving down the ball with an iron rammer, there are feveral others which we mall mention. In Germany they fometimes charge them in the following manner : a piece of thin leather or fuftian is cut of a circular fhape, and fo large as to cover a little more than one half of the ball ; this piece is then greafed on one fide* and being placed over the muzzle, the ballball is laid upon it, and both thruft down together ; by this means the leather or fuftian enters into the rifles, and the bullet being firmly embraced by it, acquires the proper rotatory motion in its paflage through the barrel. If this method be equally effectual, it is certainly much more eafy and expeditious than that already defcribed. Some of the old pieces of this con- ftruction, were charged by taking out the breech every time ; and we are informed, that the pieces ufed by the Heffian yagers, are charged in the fame manner as the common fcrew-barrel piftols. By far the moft expeditious way of charging rifled pieces however, is, by means of an ingenious contrivance which now generally goes under the name of Fergufon's rifle-barrel,

An Essay on Shooting 1789

Thefe pieces are charged in various ways. In general, the ball, which is fomewhat larger than the caliber before it was rifled, is driven down a-top of the powder, by means of an iron rammer, ftruck with a mallet, whereby that zone of the ball which is in contact with the fides of the barrel, becomes indented all round, and is moulded to the form of the rifles. When the piece is fired, the ptbjec- tions of the ball which fill the rifles, being obliged to follow the fweep of the fpiral, the ball thereby acquires a L 2 rotatoryrotatory motion upon ah axis that cor- refponds with the line of its direction j fo that the fide of the bullet which lay foremoft in the barrel, continues foremoft during the whole of the flight.

An Essay on Shooting 1789

Full text of the work at: http://books.google.com/books?id=4...v=onepage&q=An Essay on Shooting 1789&f=false
 
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Yes, I have that, but the Portuguese reference seems to me to be describing something different. If you were loading by hammering on the ramrod, why would you stop at a palm's length? You wouldn't, you'd drive it right on down. By saying they hammered it down a palm's length so they can then push it down to the bottom with the ramrod at least raises the possibility of another tool, as I read it.

Spence
 
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