Elk Hunting

[Darkhorse]

I just booked a New Mexico Elk Hunt last night, though I am still debating on putting in for the Muzzleloader season or not.
But, I was talking ML with the outfitter and as food for thought I want to share some of his observations from his years in the buisness.
He likes the performance of the roundball over a saboted round. He has seen too many saboted bullets break up on the big bones.
He thinks most people would be surprised to see what the roundball will do and how many of them get complete penetration.
In his observation most big elk do not react when hit by the roundball but still die quickly. He thinks this is due to the shock and velocity factor lacking in the RB.
He has no experience with the PowerBelt bullets, but knows of them, and if they perform like claimed they should be a better bullet for elk, possibly giving more penetration and expansion with a little added range due to the shape.
I have talked to other outfitters who disliked the RB. But those same outfitters had little experience with traditional BP and would try to convince me to take an inline.
If I go with the Flintlock, it will depend in the long run on what shoots best in my gun. The RB or the PowerBelt.

 

I'm not surprised at the response of the first outfitter. Obviously, he's hunted with men who knew what they were doing, and used rifles designed for round ball & possibly, he has first=hand experience with them, himself.
: Everything he's said, holds with what Lt. James Forsyth wrote back in 1858(published in 1960) "The Gun and It's Projectiles". As this book is written in 'old English' it takes about three times through it to comprehend ALL that's written.
: The same problem with rifling twists happend back then, as it does now. Trying to have a twist that will do for both, just doesn't cut it on big game. The game deserves more respect. The same senario happened up here on moose.
: In England, they even went the other way, too fast for slug or round ball. One gun, sighted for round ball, had a 35" twist, and wouldn't shoot accurately with more than 35gr. powder. On top of that, the rilfing was too deep for conicals s wellas too fast - it was a 13 guage Purdery, I believe. Forsythe wouldn't mention names, but used dashes for the # of letters in the respective names.
: To shoot CONICAL bullets effectively on elk and moose, let alone griz, the twist has to be a CONICAL twist. In .50 the minimum is around 36" & in .54, it is 40". Any slower than that, and the conical doesn't maintain stability AFTER they hit the animal. This causes the bullet to "pass through the soft parts of the animal, shirking the bones instead of going through them". The "wound channel of the common Round Ball is most devistating, smashing the bones assunder & causes most grevious wounds" (channels).
: We are talking about reasonably big balls, here, & very large, tough animals, not small for game-balls.
: We tested these writings, in the north of B.C. and found Forsythe knew what he was talking about, even in the .50 and .45 cal. rifles. Within their range of 50yds(.45) to 75yds(.50), the round balls, even from the too-fast-48" twist, killed Moose better than did the same guns with Maxi-balls. At that time, REAL bullets weren't out yet. If they would change that scenario, I don't know.
: For devistating kills and reaction to hits, the 14guage and 10guage (my rifle and friend, Keiths) made the moose too sick to stand, with one shot, where as the maxi-balls from .54's generally showed no hit-reaction from the moose. They would turn and follow under the skin all the way around the animal's chest, instead of going on "through and through" the ribs, or hit the spine, turn almost 90 degrees and follow it until they stopped. That particular Moose staggered when hit, but then took off running, and about 6 Maxis later, liberally sprinked around his anatomy, finally secummed to his wounds. Guys would return to camp to say they'd "WOUNDED" or "HIT" 2 or 3 or 4 but couldn't find them. After we got the guys to switch to RB, they started to get 1 and 2 shot kills. Until that time, they'd shoot from 4 to 10 rounds from their speed loaders before having to gut the moose, if they could track them for subsequent shots. Normally, if not pressed, the moose will lay down within 50yds of where it was initialy hit, allowing at least 2 shots, the first and then a follow up when trying to get up. With round balls, that's all that's generally needed, even with the 45 cal.
: Properly loaded, Conicals of bore dia, in a rifle designed for them, with adequate twist, will kill as well as any ctg. gun of the same calibre and bullet combo, on the same game, be it compared to 45-70, .45-90, .50-70, or larger cased rounds.
; The bottom line, is the bullet must be stabilized to the point that it will remain stabilized AFTER it starts to penetrate. The push to "make things easy" has led to sabots and pistol bullets being used on animals not suited to them.
: In a time when there are full sized bullets for the inlines and fast-twist long rifles, I cannot fathom the use of sabots. A 28"twist .50 or .54, shooting over 400gr. of lead, will make a positive impression on any Moose or Elk. The long pistol bullets are too long for a 28" twist and we get back to the same problmes with instability AFTER contact.
: A .58 to .75 RB from a rifle will give a good 150yd. killing range for Moose from a rifle, and 100yds from a smoothbore. The impact of the big balls IS readily seen on the animal, be it moose or elk - normally. There are always exceptions to the rule.
Daryl

 

[Mtn-Man2u]

Darkhorse: I want to wish the best with your elk hunting trip that your have planned. I heard the elk in New Mexico, are pretty big in size. To use a round ball or a conical bullet, I would use a conical bullet. You didn't say what caliber you were using. A 50cal T/C Maxi-Hunter has 350 grains or a T/C Maxi-Ball 50cal has 320 grains. That's starting at the bottom and it goes up from there. A 50cal round ball is 172 grains. You would have better knock down power with the T/C Max-Hunter conical bullet, and It's lube with natural lube 1000 plus. These bullets are all lead, Good luck finding the right combination for your hunt.
Mtn-Man2u

 

[weasel]

Darkhorse just a word of caution Many hunters i have talked to will never use power belts again 50 percent of hunters who have used them complain of the bullet fragging and leaving little or no bloodtrail Most of us here know what a prb will do and has done for cenuries Speaking for myself I wouldn't hesitate to use prb on elk moose bear or any american animals good luck on your choice and hunt
weasel

 

[sabotloader]

you don't say which type of muzzleloader you are planning on using so I am not sure what I could advise, but I going to take this shot....

I am not a guide but I would offer 40 years of elk hunting experiance in Idaho. They are tough animals, they are big boned, the longer the range of the shot the better you had better be - shot placement is a premium with a muzzleloader.

What projectile you might use is to a real factor of range, what range are you going to be shooting? If the ranges are going to be short and you are a good shot I believe the round ball would work fine especially if you have a large caliber sidelock so you can get a heavy ball into the animal, both animals the gun and the elk.

If your ranges are opening the best thing is probably a conical again a heavey with penetration and foot #'s of energy.

The advise you got about pistol bullets(sabots) blowing up is in a lot of cases true, but there are saboted bullets out there you can use. Precision Rifle Bullets has several, Barnes make a good one, but I still rely on a good old favorite pistol bullet. I have used for years now a Nosler 260 or 300 grain 45 cal partition bullet in a sabot. I have not had one "blow up" on me yet and the hydraulic shock value of the hollow point is devastating inside the animal.

What ever you decide - Have a great hunt....

Just remember the work really begins after you pull that trigger.

 

[musketman]

Remember this saying:
"Elk don't know how many legs a horse has"... :winking: :haha:

 

[Darkhorse]

What I will be using is a .54 Caliber. I have two flintlocks and a caplock. I am just finishing up a 38" .54 Isacc Haines flinter that I built specifically as a hunting rifle with Elk in mind. (To justify another rifle)
I have been ML hunting for over 25 years and have never fired anything, at game or targets, but the patched roundball. I've never fired a sabot or conical and on deer and huge hogs I am tickeled pink with the RB. If it will penetrate a 3" gristle shield and kill a 400 pound boar, it will kill an Elk.
Discussion is good and we can all learn something but having said that, if I take the flinter it will only be with the round ball.
I live in Ga. and have been fortunate enough to take 4 Bull Elk. One in NM and the rest in Colorado. Two with a 7mm Mag. and two with a .300 Winchester.
For 25 years I have wanted to hunt Elk with a ML. But I'd hate to see a 350 bull at 200 yards and have a PRB flintlock in my hands. But, if I am ever going to get one with a ML I just need to go for it.
It is during the peak of the rut and there is a good chance of getting a good bull within 100 yards. Maybe not the herd bull but sometimes the satellites are good also.

 

[TwoShadows]

YEAHESSSS.....round balls and rocklocks! FARM OUT....RIGHT ARM (or is it far out and right on...i can't remember to clearly...) Conquered a continent and forged a Nation....what it's awwwl about. Rave on !

 

[Mtn-Man2u]

Darkhorse:If I had the opportunity to take a Bull Elk, with Flintlock, using a PRB, I would do it. The 54cal round ball is 212grs. The Elk will be in the middle of the rut, like you said. So this is going to be a unique hunting adventure for you. Have a Great Hunt!!!!
Steve

 

[Muleskinner]

The key in hunting elk ain't the rifle or the bullet, its the tactics and the man employing those tactics. Of all the elk I've seen die, there has never been the NEED to shoot one at long range. Conicals give you better downrange performance, but if you are good with your roundballs out to 100 yards, hunt the dark timber or the transition zones at the right time of day. Also, if the BP season is in the rut, you can locate and stalk the game by calling, a real advantage to getting within roundball range. Wyoming outta install a true primitive weapons season at the end of the rut and move the rifle season later. Or thet's how I see's it.

 

[Claude Mathis]

Remember this saying:
"Elk don't know how many legs a horse has"... :winking: :haha:

Yep... Griz to Jeremiah.

Love that movie.

 

Yeah, but I think it went
"Elk can't count Pilgrim."
Or something like that.

 

[tg]

By finding an outfitter who understands the RB and its potential you are half way to victory allready, the .54 rb does a good job on Elk, you will do fine, just try to get within 50-75 yds for max. punch, 100 will work but the closer the better,I like to practice on full size cutout targets for a good reference as to distance and size of animal in relation to sight picture, then you know if it is 50,70, or 80 yds hunting Elk up close and personal is a different game from hitting them at 250 yds with a scoped centerfire...kinda goosebumply, and when it is all over you will feel a lot better when you dig out what is left of a RB if it does not go through than chunks of a modern bullet, then you had that one figured out a long time ago.

 

[musketman]

I like to practice on full size cutout targets for a good reference as to distance and size of animal in relation to sight picture,

To expand on TG's advise if I may, take those cut-outs targets and place them in brush and standing timber, and in high grass too...

Practice shooting under real conditions as well, elk may not venture out onto a cleanly mowed back lawn, so why simulate your hunt there?

I set up in a semi-heavy wooded grove, because that is where I see the most deer, (besides the highway, but that's another story) get use to shooting off of logs in thick cover and you'll be ready for anything...

Hey DARK HORSE: This one's for you...

 

[Darkhorse]

OK, Musketman, I'll take that one!
Do me a favor and tie him to a tree in New Mexico on October 5th and give me the GPS coordinates.

Not really, earlier this year a hunting consultant called me and tried to convince me what a good hunt I could have in a high fence. I told him he was wasting my time and if I had to shoot one inside a fence I would consider it a shame and a waste of my time and money, much less a waste of a fine animal.

Claude is right. It went like this;
Jeremiah: "Won't he see our legs?"
Bearclaw: "Elk don't know how many legs a horse has!"

 

[Plains99]

Amen to Muleskinner. Tactics are much more important for elk hunting than rifle. I like heavy conicals in either inline or sidehammer because Colorado regulations don't care as long as the bullet configuration is correct. Inside of 100 yards a .54 caliber muzzleloader is pretty effective if you hit correctly.

 

[Darkhorse]

Yeah I know, this is an old post. But it is an old post of mine, I am the OP. I ran across this by accident and decided it needed finishing.
I put in for a rut hunt with muzzleloaders for years without getting drawn. That's the short answer. The long answer is I was employed by the department of defense and Sept. 11th completely changed my plans so I moved on.
Here at home we have whitetail deer, some are pretty large. And wild hogs, some are huge. I only shoot prb's and they have never failed me. I shoot a .54 for deer and hogs. And a 40 caliber flintlock for turkeys and smaller stuff. I built my 2 personal flintlocks to hold as close to one another as possible.
Both are a Lancaster type stock of curly maple. The .54 has a Colrain barrel and the .40 has a Rice. Both have highly tuned Chambers large siler locks. The .40 has Davis set triggers. The .54 has a fine crisp single trigger of about 2 lbs pull.
Both rifles are capable of shooting one hole groups and have done so. Before I take a rifle deer hunting it has to perform at higher levels. This is an example of how my .54 shoots the patched round ball.

 

[Idaho Ron]

This is a Zombie thread.
I have killed a pile of elk. Bulls cows calf's. I have used everything from bows on up. Elk are for more tough than most people give them credit for. An elk shot in one lung with no shoulder damage can go a LONG way. I'm no fan of the Power Belt bullets. This bullet was shot by a farmer in a threshing machine. I watched him from several miles away stop shoot into a herd and leave.

This bullet hit a calf in the hips. I watched the herd go several miles and the calf stopped and laid down. I went there and the calf got up and took off running. I shot it with a Lee 500 S&W bullet paper patched in one of my Renegades.

The bullet went in to the hip and lodged next to the hip but failed to break it. The whole nose sluffed off the power belt and it lacked enough mass to punch on through.
While I'm a fan of conical's I am not a fan of all conical's.
This next bullet was out of a new box of TC bullets.

Most conical bullets have ZERO quality control. As good as the No Excuse bullets are they still range +- 10 grains.

The Power belts are garbage. in the last 20+ years since this thread was started the word is out how poor the PB really are. I'm equally no fan of PRB. Mainly because guys shoot them at a deer and say they punched all the way through they have to be good on elk, WRONG. Just because they get the job done on another animal doesn't mean for one second that they will work on elk. I know a pile of elk are killed every year with a PRB. A PRB out of a minimum cal of 54 with perfect bullet placement will work. I'm not saying it won't. I'm saying that because they do have more limitations a guy must work harder to overcome those
limitations. To the point of not taking a shot if the correct placement does not appear.
A guy simply can not shoot an elk in the shoulder with a PRB. that is a recipe for disaster. That said with my time proven conicals I do hold for a shoulder if I need to. This shoulder was crushed by a 458 gr slightly hardened bullet out of my Renegade.

My bull from last year was another one that I purposefully aimed at the shoulder to anchor the bull.

A lot of our hunts are close to private land. I use enough medicine that if I need to put an animal down right now I have the best possible chance to do that. The bull above was only feet from the fence that marked private land.

As you can see in the pictures sometimes we have no dark timber to use to get closer. A lot of our hunts in Southern Idaho require a rifle to be able to reach out. That is just the way it is in some hunts. In those cases I honestly don't feel that a PRB is adequate at least for me. I prefer the ability to get the job done.
This bullet was out of my bull.

It started out at 458 grains. It still weighed 454 grains when I found it.

Now these bullets are 410 grain Hornady bullet I dug out of a mule deer.

These bullets are so soft that they didn't penetrate as well as they should have. I don't consider any of the Hornady muzzleloader bullets to be adequate for elk.

This bullet was one of my RCBS 11mm bullets paper patched and shot out of my Hawken.

Again I am not saying all conicals are better. I's not saying all PRB won't do it. I'm saying if guys hunt elk it behooves them to really dig deep into what is a good projectile for the game they are going after.