Elk hunting

[wolf]

However, I have shot my Omega for 16-18 times in a row with only a spit swap and clean patch between shots with not even one hangfire. I think the combo of being in-line, the 209 primer, and cleaner buring 777 are collectively responsible. Bottom line is that when I get it in the field, I will be more confident that I won't have a misfire at the crucial moment.

Hey, have you tried one of those new cartridge guns? I hear they never misfire. :winking: :haha:

Sorry, couldn't help myself. ::

 

[tg]

Sounds like someone should define the sport of ML hunting to the powers that be in Colorado... FWIW a .50 rb is fine for Elk if you can hold your water for a shot at 50yds or so, it is on the light side but a well disciplined hunter will do ok with it if it is leagal in your area, hey Wolf..glad you said it...I was thinkin' it.

 

[txhunter58]

Not true Wolf, I had a 270 rifle misfire on me on a 10 point whitetail (true story)! LOL

We will probably not ever agree on this one, so I will agree to dissagree, but I don't believe that using an inline gives me any advantage over you in the field. It is no more accurate than my T/C renegade in my hands when no scope is used. A scope is what makes it no longer a "primative weapon". And I suspect you can shoot as accurately as me as far as I can (100 yards, which is my absolute max with open sights under ideal conditions). The only difference is that I have a more reliable ignition system. I would hate to have a hangfire someday cause me to jerk a shot, ending up wounding my quarry and not revovering him/her.

tg: I know there are some that use rb's for elk, but I will always be one who slings big conicals at any animal that big. Will probably be using the 405 gr powerbelt next fall for elk. In front of 90 grains of 777 (aprox equivalent to 105 gr blackpowder), this should be very adequate out to 100 yards for any elk.

Just like others will never agree on the longbow/recure vs. compound bow controversy. I realize that there are those that say that we should only use original flintlocks with real black powder. I am not one of them, but I can understand their point of view. I do think that placing a scope on a muzzleloader is fine in rifle seasons, but should NEVER be allowed in a "primative" muzzy only season.

 

[wolf]

A scope is what makes it no longer a "primative weapon".... ....The only difference is that I have a more reliable ignition system.

I guess this is another point we can agree to disagree on. :winking:

 

[Stumpkiller]

The first one using a moisture proof 209 shotgun primer fired by a coil spring powered direct drop shear held linear pin instead of an internal or external hammer, having a synthetic stock, or just the first fully enclosed #11 cap, flint or pyrite ignition?

They have to put mufflers on ATV's and jet ski's. I say there should be a randomizer feature mandated on every in-line that makes a "pfffft" sound but blocks the firing pin one-out-of-ten shots.

 

[Huntinfool]

"Well, there they go again" (what Ronald Reagan would've said about all the disagreements.) LOL!

I just want to get my 2 cents worth in. Not to argue or debate mind you.

If legal I would not hesitate to elk hunt with my .50 cal longrifle. Granted it's not the perfect cal. for elk huntin' but then neither is a .243 Win. A friend of mine has taken 6 or 7 elk with his .243 and all with one shot.

The trick is to know your limitations and only take broadside shots within a range that you can keep em in the boiler works. I know if I was to shoot an elk broadside through the heart lung area he would expire in a timely fashion and leave a good blood trail. No matter how tough he is "there is only one degree of dead". Dead is dead.

I've always said if I had the chance to go I'd rather have a larger cal. rifle for elk sized game. But I'm sure I could have excellent results with a 177 grain rb.

Beware of the man with one rifle!

Keep Em Dry Folks,
"The Chuckster" ::

 

[Deerstalker]

Fellas, let's all just get along! First off, an inline rifle is not by any explanation a primative wepon. With it's modern features stated above and some of the newer powders, it's basically a modern rifle with the casing removed and a little more time consuming to load. Am I against the new rifles? Nope, I own one and it is a fine shooting rifle. Just isn't a primative weapon. I believe folks have a right to shoot what they want to, just like with archery ( I own both modern and primative bows, down to an osage self bow). However, when a primative season is established, it should be for primative weapons only, not the hunting industries interpretation of primative which appeals to more hunters and thus, sells more rifles and supplies. Archery is seeing the same thing right now, with compound versus traditional folks. Main thing is we all stick together as hunters and shooters, instead of fighting about who's dog is bigger than mine. I will stand by my interpretation of primative, though, and recommend that only primative weapons be allowed in that season. I think it's only fair.
Just my humble opinion,
Bryan :bull:

 

[txhunter58]

Then maybe "primative" is the wrong word to use because you are correct: an in-line is definately not an authentic primative weapon. Maybe I should have used "limited effective range" weapon. IMO that is why they allow special seasons for muzzys and bows, because their effective range, and therefore success ratio, is less. Yes, success ratios in Colorado for muzzy season rivals if no surpass rifle season success, but it you had a rifle season during the muzzy season, the success ratio would probably be 75%+.

Can anyone explain to me how my Omega is able to kill game at longer distances than my T/C renegade without a scope? I personally know guys who routinely and effectively take shots longer than 100 yards with true "primative" weapons. I will not because I am not confident in my "open sight" shooting abilities past 100.

So, I totally agree that inlines are not really "primative" but they are only effective at "primative distances". Otherwise, we need to be all shooting only 100 year old rifles, because NEW authentic "primative" reproduction rifles have much better barrels, rifling, etc. than the average gun manufactured 100 years ago.

 

[oneshot]

I'd like to use my Crossbow with Vortex Heads :shocking: ::

oneshot

 

[Stumpkiller]

Can anyone explain to me how my Omega is able to kill game at longer distances than my T/C renegade without a scope?

By shooting :

Aimed using these:

And pusihed at 'modern' velocities with three pellets of:

(But scopes ate more common - heck, why not with an illuminated reticle while we're at it)


Eventually these:

Will lose the primative season for folks who just want to use these:

I'm disgusted with in-lines because they are spoilers and just designed to 'cheat' and get the most efficiency inside the loose primative season regulations for folks unwilling to take the risks associated with truly primative arms for reasons of greed or the unsporting drive for success at any cost, or develop the skills needed to get close enough that a less efficient projectile is still good enough. Sure, I'm a crank. I don't use attractor or cover scents or treestands or ATV's either, 'cause that's not what it's all about to me. What you believe is your business, but don't expect acceptance from everyone.

 

[tg]

Just curious but isn't there a seperate topic area for in-lines? might be good to keep all aspects of those guns there, target shooting, hunting, loads and projectiles and whatever else folks do with them...

 

[Claude Mathis]

Just curious but isn't there a seperate topic area for in-lines? might be good to keep all aspects of those guns there, target shooting, hunting, loads and projectiles and whatever else folks do with them...

I agree.

I've reworded the descriptions for both the In-Line and Hunting categories to reflect this.

 

[tg]

Good call Claude, otherwise it is like waving a red flag at a bull or inviting Clinton as the guest speaker at a republican fundraiser.

 

[Huntinfool]

I'm sorry I have to disagree with you on one point for sure txhunter58 you said,

Otherwise, we need to be all shooting only 100 year old rifles, because NEW authentic "primative" reproduction rifles have much better barrels, rifling, etc. than the average gun manufactured 100 years ago.

I know that the rifles of yester year shot as good or better than a lot of rifles today. My gunsmith friend owns dozens of original smoke poles flint and percussion. He has test fired all of them and they will drive tacks.

Some gunmakers prefer the old way of making a rifle barrel he has a rifleing machine that has 2 different deals one puts a gain twist the other 1 in 70" twist.

Plus my "NEW authentic "primative" reproduction rifle" is for the most part hand built with the exception of the Douglas Barrel and the Chambers lock!

Again I'm not trying to argue just enlighten you to a few facts!

Keep Her Dry Fellers,
"The Chuckster" ::

 

Stumpy: I resent your attitude about in-lines.
yes it's true I got into period kerrect flinters, but I'm right proud to say that i still own a Thompson Center Black Diamond E.R. with 3X9 Leupold scope. It's STILL THE BEST DOOR STOP I HAVE! :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:

 

[txhunter58]

Just curious but isn't there a seperate topic area for in-lines? might be good to keep all aspects of those guns there, target shooting, hunting, loads and projectiles and whatever else folks do with them...

tg: Just curious, but isn't there a seperate topic area for percussions and flintlocks?

I truly do understand you purists point of view and respect it. However, I believe this discussion does belong in the hunting forum because we are talking about whether or not the in-line should be allowed in primative hunting seasons.

Again, for clarity: I am against using scopes, sabots, and also pelleted powder being used in primative seasons.

Stump: Are you saying is if you use the sabot pictured in your post, you can't shoot as accurately with your percussion as my Omega with open sights?

Still, IMO my Omega does not shoot any more accurately due to the ignition system. Does anyone really dissagree with this commment? That is the only point I am trying to make. I totally agree that sabots, scopes, pelletized power, etc should not be allowed in primative seasons.

I have made my position clear as have you. I am a newbie here and I really don't want to piss you guys off because I am sure you have far greater knowledge about muzzys than I. Just like to make people think and find that in the exchange, I am forced to rethink my positions too. Thanks for the dialogue.

Huntinfool: On thinking further, you are probably right. Back then, rifles were made one at a time by craftsman and may indeed outshoot our mass produced rifles.

 

[Darkhorse]

I disagree with that statement. I think your Omega or any other inline should be inherently more accurate than a flintlock and to a lesser degree a percussion.
The very mechanics and realities of the flintlock gives you slower and sometimes varying lock times depending on a lot of factors, most notably the weather. And I don't know of any benchrest centerfire rifles that are built to have slow lock times.
The lock time factor is most apparent when a new shooter first begins to shoot the flintlock. Later, after the subleties are learned it becomes less of an issue. But even so, it remains and will always remain a factor to accuracy.
If one took the time to work up accuracy loads for the barrels and twists provided with inlines then I would expect them to shoot benchrest groups. And to do this more consistantly than either flintlocks or percussion.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Just curious but isn't there a seperate topic area for in-lines?

Yeah, but I have a personal policy of never going there because, even though I disapprove, I respect their right to have a place to enjoy sharing their sport without bozos like me soiling their well. I'm a troll, but I'm a troll with forum decorum.

I just can't help myself sometimes when it comes up in the 'broad spectrum" categories like Hunting or General. You'll notice I try and help the original post where I can if it's a question or problem before I pounce.

Friends don't let friends stay with in-lines. We have to help them realize their shooting problem so they can begin recovery. It's like asking a compound bow shooter when he might feel confident enough to loose the training wheels on the ends of his bow's limbs.

 

[Stumpkiller]

Stump: Are you saying is if you use the sabot pictured in your post, you can't shoot as accurately with your percussion as my Omega with open sights?

Roundball to roundball with 80 or 90 gr of blackpowder in each weapon I could hold my own with my Renegade. A roundball twist barrel wouldn't stabilize that conical, but that is moot. Show of hands here for how many in-line shooters use patched, round balls? A 1:28" twist is designed and marketed to shoot conicals. Past 150 yards I could't hold a candle to a load starting out 800 fps faster with a ballistic coefficient and sectional density worlds away from a round ball. I'd have to hold about a foot high at 150 yds with an 80 yard zero using a roundball. How's by you? Guys were popping buffalo at 500 to 1,000 yards with early cartridges like the 45-120 and iron sights. I have fired high-power with non-peep open sights at 250 yards (an 1898 Krag 30-40 with ladder rear just to see how I could do). I'm saying an in-line shooting a jacketed bullet over 'magnum' loads of smokeless powder ignited by an almost instantaneous ignition system is a cartridge rifle without a cartridge case. If someone wants to shoot it during the regular gun season I think they have a mighty fine idea and are exhibiting sportsmanship by limiting themselves to a single shot. I carry my New Englander loaded with a conical bullet during regular gun season for just that reason.

Please don't think that I, in any way, am attacking you personally. I understand that you have acknowledged the distinction between primative and non. You just happened to be the millionth person over the bridge that day and the "in-line" word hit my eyes at the proper moment. Consider my post a rant. I've only ever taken a jab at one individual's character here and that had nothing to do with his choice of firearms. I think debate is as good a sport as poker, chess or tennis. I put my concepts out in the public here not because I want everyone to adopt them. I want to expose folks to other opinions than their own so, perhaps, they can understand opposing viewpoints better.

In all honesty I truly believe in-lines are a threat to a seperate primative season because non-hunters and hunters who use only 'regular' firearms don't see any disadvantage in them compared to a modern firearm. "Why should they be granted a special privilege whan they're using space-age weapons?" Anything mechanical is designed with a purpose. Face it, a .38 spl 2" barrel bellygun is designed to be a concealable weapon to be used to shoot a human at close range. That's what it is good at. I'm OK with that. I shouldn't have to pretend to justify owning one by saying it can be used for target shooting or hunting. What is an in-line designed for?

PS When I first read "muzzys" I thought you were talking about chisel pointed, replaceable blade broadheads. We won't even go there, as that would open an even bigger can of worms. I also have canned sermons on tree-stands, bait, chemical scents, scent suits, ATV's, mechanical broadheads, bowsights, fenced hunts, jet-skis, japanese cars and de-caffinated coffee. :: A person who stands for nothing will fall for anything.

 

"A person who stands for nothing will fall for anything."
I like that Stumpy, I like it a lot. I thought I was the biggest opinionated arse on this board, but you are dead even with me. I think we are in good company! :: :applause:
tg: and you other in-liners. WARNING
I was an in-liner just a couple years ago and look what happened to me. Better watch out 'cause if you have a decent intellect, an open mind, a feel for a really good looking rifle, you'll be giving birddog6 ALL your money and finally get a decent firearm.
:haha: :haha:
Now you in-liners take all this with a good laugh as no one is attacking YOU, just trying to save your soul that's all.
Hell you orta be greatful that we 'uns care so much 'bout yee! ::