Energy foot pounds, velocity

[nkbj]

A ten pound bowling ball dropped from 40 feet up has 400 foot pounds of energy. Believe me it can and will kill. Tiny little projectiles fired from modern rifles need huge energy to mushroom the bullet up to the size that a round ball already has. The huge energy that the modern gun gurus say is required is not so much to kill the deer as to make the bullet function properly.

Amen. And when the bullet starts off plenty big so much the better.

 

[Col. Batguano]

A ten pound bowling ball dropped from 40 feet up has 400 foot pounds of energy. Believe me it can and will kill. Tiny little projectiles fired from modern rifles need huge energy to mushroom the bullet up to the size that a round ball already has. The huge energy that the modern gun gurus say is required is not so much to kill the deer as to make the bullet function properly.

And a 4 1/2" Rubber ball fired from a mortar will kill a cat at 400 yards too. http://www.buckstix.com/CoehornMortarHunt.htm

 

[hanshi]

I'll talk "ft lbs" with ya'. Just remember these figures mean absolutely ZERO when considering MLs.

Loaded up, a .50 can match a 30/30 in M.E. with either ball or conical. We're talking in (the 1700ft lbs) range. A well charged .40 easily equals a .41mag revolver with factory loads (the 800s). .36? Well, it can be loaded to factory level energies of a .357mag (the 600s). A .45 can easily leave a .44mag revolver in the dust (1200s). The .32 can beat .22mag loads from a rifle.

We could go on but there you have it; no need to continue. These figures are meaningless with muzzy guns. Just shoot and have fun!

 

[nkbj]

I'll talk "ft lbs" with ya'. Just remember these figures mean absolutely ZERO when considering MLs.

Loaded up, a .50 can match a 30/30 in M.E. with either ball or conical. We're talking in (the 1700ft lbs) range. A well charged .40 easily equals a .41mag revolver with factory loads (the 800s). .36? Well, it can be loaded to factory level energies of a .357mag (the 600s). A .45 can easily leave a .44mag revolver in the dust (1200s). The .32 can beat .22mag loads from a rifle.

We could go on but there you have it; no need to continue. These figures are meaningless with muzzy guns. Just shoot and have fun!

For years I searched for a single shot .41 rifle. Then I got a .40 fast twist (.411 groove diameter) muzzleloader. Way much better than a cartridge gun. Greater versatility. More fun to shoot.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

I'll talk "ft lbs" with ya'. Just remember these figures mean absolutely ZERO when considering MLs.

Loaded up, a .50 can match a 30/30 in M.E. with either ball or conical. We're talking in (the 1700ft lbs) range. A well charged .40 easily equals a .41mag revolver with factory loads (the 800s). .36? Well, it can be loaded to factory level energies of a .357mag (the 600s). A .45 can easily leave a .44mag revolver in the dust (1200s). The .32 can beat .22mag loads from a rifle.

We could go on but there you have it; no need to continue. These figures are meaningless with muzzy guns. Just shoot and have fun!

A 3030 can kill elk at 200 yards. Can that 177gr round ball?

 

[hanshi]

I'll talk "ft lbs" with ya'. Just remember these figures mean absolutely ZERO when considering MLs.

Loaded up, a .50 can match a 30/30 in M.E. with either ball or conical. We're talking in (the 1700ft lbs) range. A well charged .40 easily equals a .41mag revolver with factory loads (the 800s). .36? Well, it can be loaded to factory level energies of a .357mag (the 600s). A .45 can easily leave a .44mag revolver in the dust (1200s). The .32 can beat .22mag loads from a rifle.

We could go on but there you have it; no need to continue. These figures are meaningless with muzzy guns. Just shoot and have fun!

A 3030 can kill elk at 200 yards. Can that 177gr round ball?

Did you read my post? I specifically stated that there is no way to compare a jacketed cf bullet with a prb. The post simply listed m.e. for various rounds.

 

[George T.]

Well Heck! Another old coot here! I own the exact rifle that you have. I have shot it a lot. When I bought the Dutch Schultz System I learned some things. In a slow twist you need at least 1 1/2 times the bore size as a accurate powder charge. You have found your first sweet spot. My rifle shoots tight again at 110 grains of 2F.

I guess the 100 dollar question is "Do You Need That Much"? I read the other posts and I agree with some and others not so much.

At this point I will give you the facts that I have learned shooting real critters over the years. The size and weight of the ball does matter. My 50 killed better than my 40. I never lost a deer with either. I am very careful not to take bad shots.

I have to admit that I never shot light loads when hunting. In my 40 I shot 95 grains and in my 50 I shot 110. While I do not argue that a lighter load would have resulted in dead deer I felt better knowing that I was shooting a load that shot flatter and was as accurate. I read that the PRB had all kinds of problems but it works. Shed velocity? Of course! however it will kill better at any range if the velocity is higher.

I live in Texas and hunted for years in the 5 deer a year area of Travis County. I have seen deer killed with .223's , 257's , 270's , 300 Savages , 30-06's 300 H&H's and I can tell you that in my experience the 50 caliber PRB with a 110 grain load kills as well or better than any of these.

One parting thought! When one looks at the expense of a deer hunt with the lease , gas , lodging etc. I really do not feel that this is a good place to save powder if you can get the accuracy your looking for with a heavier load use it! My 2 Cents! Geo. T.

 

[russecv58]

I have a 50cal GPR. Which is very accurate 1.5 inches 50yards from a rest, for this ole 68 year old I do not think that is bad. Okay my question. I am using 75 grains 2f Goex powder, according to the Lyman book 70 grains will give me 1471 MV and 851 ME then it states what it is at 100yards,with the 80grain charge. Is there that much difference in the 75grain charge and the 80 grain charge. Is there any where that tells what the ME and the MV would be at 50 yards?? .490grain RB

well, I cant tell you what the figures would be, but I can tell you that when I target shoot at 200 yds, a .490 rb pushed by 70 grains of 3f Goex will shoot through one of those plastic industrial pallets, the 4x4 post its propped up against, and burry itself 8 inches into the dirt backstop behind it. heck, it even puts a hole in the paper target stapled to front of that pallet. :thumbsup:

 

[nchawkeye]

A 3030 can kill elk at 200 yards. Can that 177gr round ball?

Sure it can, read up on Timothy Murphy... :wink:

 

[Little Wattsy]

A 3030 can kill elk at 200 yards. Can that 177gr round ball?

Sure it can, read up on Timothy Murphy... :wink:

That's right, it don't matter what you shoot "you jist gotta do yer part" heck you can take out a water buffalo at 900 paces with a sparrow if you just do it right... :youcrazy:

 

[nchawkeye]

Yep, this keyboard cowboy can do just as good as that keybored cowboy!!! :wink:

Killing, and finding are 2 different things though... :blah:

I wouldn't take a 200 yard shot at an elk with either...Unless hungry... :shocked2:

 

[Idaho Ron]

It is funny how you guys that worship at the alter of the PRB actually make my point. You all start bringing up Centerfire bullets and calibers when they are clearly not allowed to discuss. I wonder why the PRB boys can discuss 223, 243 and so on but a guy can't bring up a sabot? Why is that?

Most of you know I don't shoot fast small bullets. In fact when you look at what I shoot and what the PRB boys shoot it is them that are the guys shooting the small bullets and pushing them fast just to make the somewhat worthy of shooting at a live animal.
Ron

 

[hanshi]

The round ball is the original and traditional projectile fired almost up to the Great War. For those interested in history it's a slam dunk.

M.E. simply has nothing to do with muzzleloaders. Way back when I hunted with cf rifles, I paid no attention to M.E. even then. I killed deer with 45/70s, .338 win mag on down to the .22Hornet. During all those decades of killing an enormous number of deer, I never once witnessed one killed by M.E.

Maybe cf cartridges need M.E. to do a reasonable job. With those you have a hardened lead core wrapped in a brass (more or less) jacket; more speed is maybe needed to get any expansion. A big (ok, .45 & up) soft lead ball makes a giant hole going in and expands like crazy coming out. M.E. is not only out of town during these situations but it also misses its flight back in. These figures are lots of fun to play with but really don't mean squat.

 

[George]

To nobody in particular...

We may choose to ignore energy in our shooting, but that doesn't mean it disappears. It's no more true that energy is completely uninvolved in killing an animal than that velocity is. Both are inextricably involved with a moving projectile, whether we are aware of it and choose to consider its effect, or not.

It's certainly true that we don't understand the relationship of the energy characteristics of a round ball to its ability to kill game, no doubt about that. But it's there. It's energy that does the killing, energy that's present because of the weight and speed of the ball. The more weight or speed, the more energy.

I do agree that we haven't a clue how much energy it takes to do the job, and all the formulas to calculate that seem completely without rhyme or reason, to me. I ignore them completely. But, as a general rule it seems reasonable that balls with more energy will be more likely to do the job.... personal opinion.

Some of us like to play with the numbers involved in the shooting game. I certainly do, and my considerations of the ballistics, the velocities and trajectories, etc., contribute in a very large way to my enjoyment of the sport. If a man doesn't enjoy that aspect, that's perfectly OK, it's not the least bit necessary. Don't forget, though, it's equally OK if we do.

Spence

 

[tenngun]

I'm a thinking conicals came about with that little french guy long about 1840(his name after all was minne)So it is a traditional projectile for post 1840 guns.A lot of traditional ml were mad to shoot them.Is a conical better then a prb,no doubt about it.Does it kill better?In certian situations yes indeed.I hunt with prb and only prb,I hunt within the limitations of my gun.Just like an archer hunts within the limittions of his equipment.Out to 150 yards the prb will kill any animal in north america.To answear the origanal question 5 grains at 50 yards aint going to make any difference.An elk or moose or any f all are sorts of deer are just as dead after being hitwith 400 ftp of prb as they would be if it had been 1000 ftp from a conical.There is nothing magic about a prb.Its just when you blow a 1/2 inch hole through the lights,liver heart,brain or spinal colum that animal is meat on the table.If I cut off a head with a guillitine or a tomahawk its just as headless(and a tomahawk fits in my belt) :haha:

 

[Idaho Ron]

The round ball is the original and traditional projectile fired almost up to the Great War. For those interested in history it's a slam dunk.

M.E. simply has nothing to do with muzzleloaders. Way back when I hunted with cf rifles, I paid no attention to M.E. even then. I killed deer with 45/70s, .338 win mag on down to the .22Hornet. During all those decades of killing an enormous number of deer, I never once witnessed one killed by M.E.

Maybe cf cartridges need M.E. to do a reasonable job. With those you have a hardened lead core wrapped in a brass (more or less) jacket; more speed is maybe needed to get any expansion. A big (ok, .45 & up) soft lead ball makes a giant hole going in and expands like crazy coming out. M.E. is not only out of town during these situations but it also misses its flight back in. These figures are lots of fun to play with but really don't mean squat.

It is clear that the only squat in your post is you don't know squat about foot pounds of energy. To say animals are not killed by energy shows how little you understand ballistics. I am wasting my time with you. Ron

 

[Bill Hall]

Spence, if I had a way with words, as you do, I would have said it exactly the same. You nailed it, darn good post, true words. Bill

 

[Rifleman1776]

The round ball is the original and traditional projectile fired almost up to the Great War

It is also the projectile used when Red Faris and his friends revived the use of muzzle loaders in the 1930s.
The traditional ml rife and the round ball are what this game is all about.
Learn it, use it, enjoy it.
Talking about and using other stuff is not the (olde) ml tradition.

 

[hanshi]

I actually know quite a bit about external ballistics and have to mention once more that you either did not read my posts or you read what you wanted regardless what was in the post.

Energy is a tool used by the projectile to penetrate deeply enough to become terminally fatal. This can be very important with smaller cf arms. These same energy figures are NOT IMPORTANT with traditional MLs and their prbs or conicals. You can't get 2500ftlbs or 3000ftlbs out of a .50 or .54 and still be safe holding the thing. Easy to do with cf.

What causes prb or even conicals to kill, say, deer? Well, velocity - it has to reach the deer and have enough speed to penetrate), mass - within reason the bigger the better, projectile material - big calibers do enough damage to kill even if they are only patched ball bearings, smaller calibers do better when allowed to expand. A .50 prb launched at 1460fps will have a muzzle energy of only 850 ft lbs of muzzle energy. At 50 yards it will lose around 1/3 of that hitting the deer with 400+ ft lbs of energy, or there about; it will handily kill that deer; a cf at that energy level likely will not even expand. Now tell me how a cf at 2500 ft lbs of muzzle energy applies to a .50 or .54 prb at 1/3 the ME? And the ML doesn't even need to expand; it's already huge when it hits.

 

[tenngun]

Bless you hanshi.It aint deader because it was hit with more energy.A poem in the old Blackpowder report about this same topic ended"mathamatics is fine but dont leave out a triffle,the eyes, head, and hands that back up the rifle" :rotf: