English Fowler ID

[RFindley]

OldRust
Would you mind posting some pics of the forestock, nose cap and butt plate? I am getting materials together to build a half stock fowler similar to yours. Details of an original would help. TIA

 

[OldRust]

OldRust
Would you mind posting some pics of the forestock, nose cap and butt plate? I am getting materials together to build a half stock fowler similar to yours. Details of an original would help. TIA

Absolutely I would be happy to. I've been busy and and not replying to the good folks on this thread in a timely manner. I'll catch up this weekend Thanks OR

 

[OldRust]

The historical context of the makers alone is justification for the price. Well done! If it has a good bore, you might want to try it in the field, just to know what a really fine shotgun feels like in action.

Treestalker I agree completely. The price was steep but to me justified for the piece. My time spent researching an old firearm or antique tool is as enjoyable as taking it to the range or workbench. After giving it some thought I am definitely going to break a few clay birds with this one. It may be a year or so out due to needing a bit of mechanical style repairs to my shooting shoulder but it's going to happen. Thanks OR

 

[OldRust]

I can tell you what it feels like - it feels like a magic wand that you wave through the target and hey presto! it disappears. Nothing at all feels in the least like an old English fowling piece. I picked up a friend's $15000 Perazzi rightways afterwards and shot a straight 25 holes in the air. It felt like swinging a chainsaw.

BTW, here is a movie about making a twist barrel in Belgium almost a hundred years ago. This style of barrel is often called a Damascus twist from the beautiful pattern made by the intertwining strips of metal and their resemblance to old-style Damascus steel blades - the more twists it is made of, the more it costs.

I am convinced, it will make a trip to the trap range.

Thank you
OR

 

[OldRust]

Henry Nock died in 1805 that proof cant be earlier than 1814 the other mark I think is Bournes or some private maker not Nock. I have a 12 bore rifle very much the same style & Nocks as flint but breached for percussion by Squires . The Brum proof is established 1813 but whether they where ready for operations that date I am unsure hence reckon on 1814. Either way its not against it .. His dieing if a bit of a nuisance for him doesn't mean the firm ceased in that style .Twigg , Manton, or Egg undoubtedly set the' house style' but didn't & couldn't work on every gun bearing their names .But would maintain the firms standards . The lower mark is Brum its the' View' mark i e' inspection before & after proof
Rudyard

Rudyard Thank you for that information and the common sense assessment that a business doesn't close the boors when the current owner passes. That should have been clear to me.
The " Brum " confused me for a bit until it dawned on me that it was a local name for Birmingham.

Best regards OR

 

[OldRust]

Last year I busted a heap of clays with a mates 16 bore Joseph Egg, there is absolutely not doubt that an old English high grade fowler handles a treat. I am no shotgunner in reality but I kept up with a bunch of experienced shooters using modern over and under, they were much surprised, so was I .

I have no doubt. The fit, feel and balance of this one is excellent. I'll let you know in time
Thanks OR

 

[OldRust]

Ref. the additional 'tombstone' mark along with the proof marks, see the following free PDF download on my web site for more information: Why The Tombstone?

There's also a couple of other articles on English Provincial Gun Barrel Markings.

David

David, Great reference information. I'm following your site.
Thank you for sharing it. OR

 

[OldRust]

These are private birmingham proof marks last used 1812 or early 1813 and are the immediate predecessors of the proof mark on your gun. My gun is also signed by Westley Richards who stated in 1812.

Interesting I to have a British 12 ga Double that is marked W Richards 51 Old Hall Street Liverpool on the top rib. It has all very clear Birmingham proof marks on the underside of the barrels. Thanks OR

 

[OldRust]

OldRust
Would you mind posting some pics of the forestock, nose cap and butt plate? I am getting materials together to build a half stock fowler similar to yours. Details of an original would help. TIA

See attached

 

[OldRust]

Absolutely I would be happy to. I've been busy and and not replying to the good folks on this thread in a timely manner. I'll catch up this weekend Thanks OR

Please See the attached

 

[TFoley]

Interesting I to have a British 12 ga Double that is marked W Richards 51 Old Hall Street Liverpool on the top rib. It has all very clear Birmingham proof marks on the underside of the barrels. Thanks OR

Liverpool is a lot nearer Birmingham than it is to London, so getting a gun proofed there is/was a no-brainer.

 

[OldRust]

Liverpool is a lot nearer Birmingham than it is to London, so getting a gun proofed there is/was a no-brainer.

So every firearm to be used and or sold for use in England had to go through one of the 2 government proof houses. London & Birmingham ? Thanks

 

[TFoley]

So every firearm to be used and or sold for use in England had to go through one of the 2 government proof houses. London & Birmingham ? Thanks

No, every firearm to be used or sold in the UNITED KINGDOM has to be subjected to proof on importations from ANY country that is not a member of the CIP organisation. The USA is NOT a member - it has neither official standards of gun proof, nor Federal proof houses in any state to apply the tests.

There are currently fourteen members of the CIP, including UK.

If you build a gun here in UK for your own use, you are not compelled to have it proofed, but it's a good idea. However, if you offer it for sale, it MUST be proofed at your expense before you can sell it or even give it away. This is not advisory - it is a legal requirement. Membership of the CIP is written into the law of the land in the nations who are members.

 

[OldRust]

No, every firearm to be used or sold in the UNITED KINGDOM has to be subjected to proof on importations from ANY country that is not a member of the CIP organisation. The USA is NOT a member - it has neither official standards of gun proof, nor Federal proof houses in any state to apply the tests.

There are currently fourteen members of the CIP, including UK.

If you build a gun here in UK for your own use, you are not compelled to have it proofed, but it's a good idea. However, if you offer it for sale, it MUST be proofed at your expense before you can sell it or even give it away. This is not advisory - it is a legal requirement. Membership of the CIP is written into the law of the land in the nations who are members.

That is interesting Thank you

 

[TFoley]

Just to belabour the point I'm making, England is just one of the four countries that make up the United Kingdom of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. The Proof Acts are in place from an Act of Parliament, and are binding of all four parts of the UK. Ignoring them WILL cost you dear, in both pocket and person - ALL of the offences against the Proof Acts are treated as criminality, and attract prison terms.

The habit of some gun-owners in the USA of removing, or 'de-farbing' what are felt to be offending proof marks is seen with horror here, and will get you free board and lodging, as well as a reduction in your life-style, for a not inconsiderable period of time.

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

I have a very nice Henry Nock fowler I took a ringneck with this afternoon. It's a beautiful light weight gun that handles well and fires reliably.

 

[RFindley]

OldRust
Want to thank you for the pics. I'm building a replica of my GGGrandfathers fowler presently on display in the Alabama State Archives. It's in rough shape so I'm collecting as much information and pics of similar originals as I can. Things like missing nose cap and butt plate. Someone converted it to a percussion later in life but it was originally a square-tailed flintlock. Octagon to round barrel. Half stock (walnut per the archives) identical trigger guard as yours. Same three proof marks. According to TOW the "tombstone" mark is a Ketland export mark. Got a squared tail flintlock from R.E. Davis which is supposed to be a copy of a Ketland early 19th century lock.

Thanks again

 

[Feltwad]

Enclosed are images of a pre 1780 flintlock by Ketland & Sons, notice the barrels which are foreign have no proof marks but may have been private proof by Ketland and marked London on the barrel rib .Another factor is that there is no lock nail that joins the locks only each lock has stud that fastens it to the standing breech this on some guns was carried on into the percussion period
Feltwad

 

[Feltwad]

My mistake the barrel flats have no proof marks only Ketlands mark on the barrel side this mark

was later used by the Birmingham proof house .
Feltwad

 

[Iron Jim Rackham]

If possible, I'd like to see photo's of your Nock's engraving to see how it compares with mine.