English Sporting Rifle Stock

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Getting close to making a choice on which rifle to build - Jaeger or English Sporting. Chambers Flintlocks website specifies only English Walnut for their Gentleman's Sporting Rifle. I realize one may do what one wishes in building, and walnut is the most correct, but what wood, other than walnut, would be appropriate for an English Sporting rifle? Cost and availability are certainly factors for walnut alternatives.
 
Getting close to making a choice on which rifle to build - Jaeger or English Sporting. Chambers Flintlocks website specifies only English Walnut for their Gentleman's Sporting Rifle. I realize one may do what one wishes in building, and walnut is the most correct, but what wood, other than walnut, would be appropriate for an English Sporting rifle? Cost and availability are certainly factors for walnut alternatives.
I would go with English or Turkish walnut. Yes, the really nice blanks cost thousands of dollars, but you can easily get a good blank for $150 to $300.
 
Hi Shawrco,
There are so few surviving English sporting rifles from the mid-18th century that it is hard to find any examples stocked in anything other than English walnut. That does not mean a few were in other woods but the English made so few rifles compared with smooth bored guns, the sample size is limited. Even Germanic jaegers were overwhelmingly stocked in walnut. However, both the English and Germans occasionally used other woods primarily some kind of maple. It was a short term fashion for English sporting guns during the early 18h century to use burl or figured maple but it died out largely because the burl cracked and chipped badly. Quite a few maple stocked guns were restocked later in walnut. John Manton used figure maple for at least one rifle during the 19th century.
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But stocks made from any other wood than English walnut were very rare. FYI, English walnut is Juglans regia. It is the same species as French, European, Italian, Circassian, Turkish, and Armenian walnut. Whether or not to build an English or jaeger rifle, I am partial to English work but they basically took their inspiration from the German rifle makers. Keep in mind, during the 18th century, rifles in England were the toys for wealthy sportsmen and land owners. Except for possibly a few game keeper's guns, there were no "poor" boy English rifles.

dave
 
Bill, Dave,
Thanks for the feedback... I have been thinking along the lines of building a Jaeger for some time now, but just recently started considering the English rifle. As you both say, walnut would be the better choice, but the supplier/builder who may be helping me get started has stopped doing walnut due to allergic reaction. I put in a call to Chambers Flintlocks today to ask about their English rifle but they haven't called back yet. I discovered a discussion on ALR forum today, "flatsguide" (Richard) is working on a Chambers English Gentleman's rifle and showing progress on the carving he'd doing on the stock, so Dave - yes I can appreciate your comment on there being no "poor boy" English sporting rifles. He's doing a great job, by the way. I know I couldn't do the carving/engraving that the English style might demand. I bought a 31" swamped Rice barrel at the show in Knoxville last year when I was heading along the Jaeger-build path and have assembled a Track Jaeger DST kit for the project already, but the English rifle could use the barrel too. Maybe an unadorned Jager in cherry????

Joe B
 
European walnut and American black walnut are two entirely different species of wood. An allergy to one does not mean an allergy to the other.
 
Hi Joe,
I know Richard well. I am Smart Dog on ALR.

dave
Yes sir... thanks for sharing your insight on my question. It's a shame he lost the original thread on building the rifle, but I guess he's re-posted some of the initial photos. I need to go back and read it completely to see if this is his first carving attempt... he's doing a keen job of it! My skills are mainly on the metalworking side, inletting, shaping not so much, and carving definitely not. I have a walnut rifle stock for an unmentionable that I could practice on though 😊
 
European walnut and American black walnut are two entirely different species of wood. An allergy to one does not mean an allergy to the other.
Hi Bill, I'm glad to know that, but I don't know what extent of allergy testing the gentleman has gone through. All he told me was not working in walnut any longer...
BTW, I've enjoyed watching your videos on Rumble. I'm sure I'll revisit them when I get started on whatever I end up going with.
 
I love my fifties for the target range, but .54 definitely has an edge when hunting. Not to stir the pot more....I love my .58 Colonial...it handles like a wand, and ....58 trumps (no pun intended) .54 ....but drops faster.
I ordered and received the English Sporting Rifle from chambers recently. While the website description says they only provide English Walnut, the difficulty of obtaining it is such that they are now using American Walnut. I suppose if only English would do they could/would get it but probably at a higher price.
 
I ordered and received the English Sporting Rifle from chambers recently. While the website description says they only provide English Walnut, the difficulty of obtaining it is such that they are now using American Walnut. I suppose if only English would do they could/would get it but probably at a higher price.
Good to know, waiting for them to return my call... the answer machine message stated Barbie is out some for medical reasons which has disrupted the office schedule somewhat. Perhaps they will call today.
Curious if you've started on building it yet? What's your assessment of it as a "kit"? Do you plan to do any carving on it?
 
Good to know, waiting for them to return my call... the answer machine message stated Barbie is out some for medical reasons which has disrupted the office schedule somewhat. Perhaps they will call today.
Curious if you've started on building it yet? What's your assessment of it as a "kit"? Do you plan to do any carving on it?
I haven't started it yet. I have several other projects that I need to get done first. If I don't do them in order the eventual result is chaos. Doesn’t make sense unless you are susceptible to distraction as I am. 😅

It's certainly not a snap together like a Kibler but the inletting positioning is good. The lock will fall in with some work but it won't be major. I went with brass and the castings are good and done with soft brass unlike so many that are more like bronze. I'm not sure on the carving. I have the potential to screw it up. It will probably look much better plain than with my carving.

The whole purpose of this rifle is to be a relatively lightweight large bore (58) rifle for hunting in the high country of the Rockies. I plan to use it come next September.

I took some photos for another member and I may as well post them here.

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Very nice... I sent you a PM but this basically answers all my questions. Which side plate are you using? After talking to Mrs. Chambers I checked my 3" bbl and the Rice Jaeger and English Rifle are different profiles. So unless I want to get another bbl, that's going to dictate the direction I take. Although, the Jaeger profile dimensions are a little larger than the English, the swamp taper is significantly different, make more work inletting barrel/breech plug/tang.
 
I'm torn on the sideplate. I'm going to polish the ornate one up and do a couple practice sessions on a piece of walnut. If I think I can do it without screwing it up I'll use the fancy one. The thumb piece will warrant some practice also. It's a chance to challenge myself for sure.

I want to do a period English style patch box but I can't find one that suits me and knowing for sure what is period correct also has me stumped!
 
Getting close to making a choice on which rifle to build - Jaeger or English Sporting. Chambers Flintlocks website specifies only English Walnut for their Gentleman's Sporting Rifle. I realize one may do what one wishes in building, and walnut is the most correct, but what wood, other than walnut, would be appropriate for an English Sporting rifle? Cost and availability are certainly factors for walnut alternatives.
English walnut/ Circassian walnut/ Turkish walnut is the appropriate stock material, if one is staying true to the form and substance. I was reading Greener's book yesterday, and he talks only about "English" walnut being the proper wood for gunstocks, which he then breaks down into particular countries and regions. You can find all kinds of English walnut blanks, and prices run from $300 to $3000, depending upon the figure. I just had a flintlock BSR built, and am looking at a percussion one now. Getting the correct triggerguard is difficult.
 
English walnut/ Circassian walnut/ Turkish walnut is the appropriate stock material, if one is staying true to the form and substance. I was reading Greener's book yesterday, and he talks only about "English" walnut being the proper wood for gunstocks, which he then breaks down into particular countries and regions. You can find all kinds of English walnut blanks, and prices run from $300 to $3000, depending upon the figure. I just had a flintlock BSR built, and am looking at a percussion one now. Getting the correct triggerguard is difficult.
Maybe you can share your sources? All the usual suppliers talk about difficulty acquiring straight grain or less figured wood, but some have the high dollar blanks. Mr Scott has beautiful blanks.
 
However, both the English and Germans occasionally used other woods primarily some kind of maple. It was a short term fashion for English sporting guns during the early 18h century to use burl or figured maple but it died out largely because the burl cracked and chipped badly. Quite a few maple stocked guns were restocked later in walnut. John Manton used figure maple for at least one rifle during the 19th century.
57Ddp63.jpg


Whether or not to build an English or jaeger rifle, I am partial to English work but they basically took their inspiration from the German rifle makers. Keep in mind, during the 18th century, rifles in England were the toys for wealthy sportsmen and land owners. Except for possibly a few game keeper's guns, there were no "poor" boy English rifles.

dave
From what I’ve seen (I don’t have all the books that some of you refer to for period correct research) the English rifle style changed in the later period and incorporated checkering such as in the photo above. Since I’m not a carver I was thinking of using the later period influence. What lock and furniture did the later period rifles use, i.e. late Ketland, Durs Egg, etc. I’ve read posts here and ALR forum of those locks needing mods/work. Still collecting information, so thanks in advance.
 
From what I’ve seen (I don’t have all the books that some of you refer to for period correct research) the English rifle style changed in the later period and incorporated checkering such as in the photo above. Since I’m not a carver I was thinking of using the later period influence. What lock and furniture did the later period rifles use, i.e. late Ketland, Durs Egg, etc. I’ve read posts here and ALR forum of those locks needing mods/work. Still collecting information, so thanks in advance.
Shaw, i just bought three highly figured english walnut blanks that fit the shape of my current BSR. They are about 30-35 years old, pretty dry and stable now. Yes, they are expensive. For a once-in-a-lifetime custom rifle…why not. These come from a now retired custom gun maker out West. He does have more blanks, most of which are cut to fit modern unmentionables stocks, which are straighter than bp. Finding one or two that fit the bend or drop of a bp rifle stock is tough, but doable. I sent him a tracing of my gun and he sent me pictures of how it fit each blank. I will ask him about how to let people know about what he has, then I will get back to you. As for the BSR flintlock, I found two that seemed most appropriate: The late Ketland, which is probably best made by Jim Kibler, and the distinctive Manton-style “waterproof pan,” which has great eye appeal to me. That is the style I chose, and went with Davis. Rice makes the same Manton style, and Dave Person has written in detail about his experience with it. My sense is that until Kibler makes a Manton-style lock, we have a choice of two very similar ones that each require substantial work. The roller frizzen is amazingly fast, and also a liability in the thick woods, if you stalk or move around at all. That frizzen is so fast it is almost like a hair trigger, set to pop open at the lightest touch.
Below is the one English walnut stock blank I bought that I like the most for the next BSR, which will be percussion.
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Shaw, i just bought three highly figured english walnut blanks that fit the shape of my current BSR. They are about 30-35 years old, pretty dry and stable now. Yes, they are expensive. For a once-in-a-lifetime custom rifle…why not. These come from a now retired custom gun maker out West. He does have more blanks, most of which are cut to fit modern unmentionables stocks, which are straighter than bp. Finding one or two that fit the bend or drop of a bp rifle stock is tough, but doable. I sent him a tracing of my gun and he sent me pictures of how it fit each blank. I will ask him about how to let people know about what he has, then I will get back to you. As for the BSR flintlock, I found two that seemed most appropriate: The late Ketland, which is probably best made by Jim Kibler, and the distinctive Manton-style “waterproof pan,” which has great eye appeal to me. That is the style I chose, and went with Davis. Rice makes the same Manton style, and Dave Person has written in detail about his experience with it. My sense is that until Kibler makes a Manton-style lock, we have a choice of two very similar ones that each require substantial work. The roller frizzen is amazingly fast, and also a liability in the thick woods, if you stalk or move around at all. That frizzen is so fast it is almost like a hair trigger, set to pop open at the lightest touch.
Below is the one English walnut stock blank I bought that I like the most for the next BSR, which will be percussion.
View attachment 381773
View attachment 381780
Those are two outstanding blanks! You will be very pleased with those rifles...
 


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