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English vs French scalping knives

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If you have not seen this knife , I think I can find a pic. I remember a discussion on it on some forum some years ago. It had shoulders, and maybe a tang like a modern file. One of the only 18th c. knives found with an antler grip

Some English tangs are tapered. Some are not. It is my thought, right or wrong, the ones not tapered are ones that are forge welded to the blade. I have pics of an original English that show a tapered tang. Kyle Willyard has dug relics with tapered tangs.

View attachment 102405

View attachment 102406
This one? I thought LRB might be Wickā€¦just wasnā€™t sure.
 
"Boxwood" is another name that gets confusing. I'm pretty sure the old-time Sheffield cutlers would have used true boxwood, Bruxus sempervirens. This stuff is impossible to get now.

And that's why the Knights who say "Ni!" always demanded a nice shrubbery like that as a toll to allow passage through their forest! It may also be the oldest record of horticulturalists attempting to save an endangered species?

I was surprised how much English plane makers and makers of other woodworking tools loved boxwood in the 18th century. Higher cost planes would sometimes be partially soled with it. Both fixed and folding rules were made of it as were a number of other tools. That's why I was surprised so much over 2 decades ago to find out Boxwood was a shrubbery or at most small trees.

Gus

P.S. The Knights who say "Ni!" were characters in the movie, "Monty Python and the Holy Grail."
 
LRB your on some of the knife forums as well? I feel like I have seen some of your posts on one of the knife forums?
Yes, but not so much any more. Just a few now and then. Since facebook appeared forums are dying off or struggling to survive.
 
Sorry, this one
1643816341246.png
 
If you go down to the local lumberyard today and ask for "red oak", you'll be shown a selection of what passes in the trade for "red oak"--they don't break it down by species (because, really, who cares as long as the woods generally work and finish the same?). Similarly, asking for "white oak" will get you any of the "white oaks". If you're dealing with a local sawmill, they may identify the woods by local names and not even know which are white oaks and which are red oaks. (So is "burr oak" a white oak or a red oak, and how do we know the oak was correctly identified in the first place?). (For the curious, "burr oak" is technically Quercus macrocarpa, and a white oak.) I deal a lot with a few small sawmills, and won't buy oak without doing some testing so I know what I'm getting--because for some uses it does matter. But much of the time, it doesn't matter today.

Species names didn't matter a lot back in the day, either. You might place an order with an importer or timber company for "Brazilian rosewood" and get any of the Dahlbergia species from (roughly) Central America; more likely, you went down to the dock or warehouse and picked out the wood (and as long as it matched, and the working characteristics were the same, who cared about species?).

We have names like "box" and "camwood" and "barrwood" and "coco" and (according to Denig and pretty much no one else) "logwood" described in fur trade records as being used for knife handles. Records of buyers in Europe identified or specified "red wood", "box", "beech", "Campeche", "coco", "vermillion", and a couple others. These are common names or trade names (much like "red oak" or "white oak" is used in the trade today). In a few cases, we can get multiple names ("red wood" and "coco", "red wood" and "Campeche") in records that seem to be referring to the same order or orders. If we want to know what specific woods were being used, we have to do some work.

If we study old records (ships bills of lading, taxes, timber dealers, cabinet shops, cloth trade, etc), and examining/identifying original knives and furniture where the woods were identified at time of purchase, we get the following:

"Barrwood": based on records and a few extant pieces of furniture, this one most-commonly (but see also "Camwood" below) appears to be Andaman padauk Pterocarpus dalbergioides. Originally from the Andaman Islands and India. I've also seen this wood called "vermillion" or "vermillion wood" in old records. Ages to a reddish or purple-ish brown. Hard to find today (not enough data for a CITES listing, but possibly Threatened or Endangered). The common substitute today is African padauk, but the African species is more brown, lacking the reddish tone as it ages. For our purposes, African padauk is probably not a good substitute due to the color difference as the red was apparently valued.

"Beech" probably refers to Fagus sylvatica. This was and is a common utility wood. European beech does differ slightly in appearance from American beeches, but as it is easily available there is probably no need to seek substitutes.

"Box" is any of several species of boxwood (Buxus species) sourced from Europe and the Caucasus. The species from the Americas, and from Africa, are more-closely related to each other, with the Europe/Asia species more isolate. The most-common species sourced in Europe was probably Buxus semipervirens, but there arguments amongst some taxonomists as to whether or not the species from Turkey/Iran/parts of the Mediterranean are synonyms of B. semipervirens or not. In old records I've seen it referred to as "box", "boxwood", "Turkish boxwood". Box was used for ornamental turnings, engravings (block prints), musical instruments, etc, and the best could be rather expensive at times. I've long suspected that the wood used for cheap knife handles was sourced from offcuts and other wood that wasn't suitable for other uses, but have never found records to determine this. European boxwood is still available in the lumber trade; Castello boxwood is probably not a good substitute due to color and grain differences.

"Campeche" in old records appears to refer to two very different woods, and I suspect this is where Denig got turned around. It usually referred to mohoganys (Swietenia species) from Mexico/Central America, but I've also seen a couple mentions of "Campeche wood" in what were clearly references to logwood. Many of the loggers cut logwood as a primary product, and mohogany as a secondary product. My suspicion is that Denig got the two confused. I've seen one original pre-1890 butcher knife with what appeared to be a handle made from mohogany. It was a common wood in the trade so it wouldn't be a surprise if someone tried it for knife scales, particularly since it ages to a reddish brown. Available today in the timber trade.

"Camwood" is Baphia nitida. (It also appears in old records as "barwood"--possibly a source of confusion. Lord knows we don't have enough confusion on this topic.....) This is another red wood, often used as a source for dye but sold in the period for small work and knife handles as well. I've found this one a couple times in the specialty timber trade.

"Coco" most probably referred to cocobolo; more likely it was a trade name for any of the Central American Dahlbergia species. Easily found in the timber trade today.

"Logwood" was listed by Denig, but as noted above under "Campeche" I think this was due to confusion on his part. Logwood was valued as a dyewood, and since any piece of logwood could be used to make dye, there were few other uses in the trade back then. Available in the trade today.

"Red wood" could have been any of the reddish woods. From the context of many of the old records, I'd go with Andaman padauk or barrwood.

"Vermillion" seems to have been used in the trade to refer to Andaman padauk. I've not been able to connect the name to any other wood.
 
If you go down to the local lumberyard today and ask for "red oak", you'll be shown a selection of what passes in the trade for "red oak"--they don't break it down by species (because, really, who cares as long as the woods generally work and finish the same?). Similarly, asking for "white oak" will get you any of the "white oaks". If you're dealing with a local sawmill, they may identify the woods by local names and not even know which are white oaks and which are red oaks. (So is "burr oak" a white oak or a red oak, and how do we know the oak was correctly identified in the first place?). (For the curious, "burr oak" is technically Quercus macrocarpa, and a white oak.) I deal a lot with a few small sawmills, and won't buy oak without doing some testing so I know what I'm getting--because for some uses it does matter. But much of the time, it doesn't matter today.

Species names didn't matter a lot back in the day, either. You might place an order with an importer or timber company for "Brazilian rosewood" and get any of the Dahlbergia species from (roughly) Central America; more likely, you went down to the dock or warehouse and picked out the wood (and as long as it matched, and the working characteristics were the same, who cared about species?).

We have names like "box" and "camwood" and "barrwood" and "coco" and (according to Denig and pretty much no one else) "logwood" described in fur trade records as being used for knife handles. Records of buyers in Europe identified or specified "red wood", "box", "beech", "Campeche", "coco", "vermillion", and a couple others. These are common names or trade names (much like "red oak" or "white oak" is used in the trade today). In a few cases, we can get multiple names ("red wood" and "coco", "red wood" and "Campeche") in records that seem to be referring to the same order or orders. If we want to know what specific woods were being used, we have to do some work.

If we study old records (ships bills of lading, taxes, timber dealers, cabinet shops, cloth trade, etc), and examining/identifying original knives and furniture where the woods were identified at time of purchase, we get the following:

"Barrwood": based on records and a few extant pieces of furniture, this one most-commonly (but see also "Camwood" below) appears to be Andaman padauk Pterocarpus dalbergioides. Originally from the Andaman Islands and India. I've also seen this wood called "vermillion" or "vermillion wood" in old records. Ages to a reddish or purple-ish brown. Hard to find today (not enough data for a CITES listing, but possibly Threatened or Endangered). The common substitute today is African padauk, but the African species is more brown, lacking the reddish tone as it ages. For our purposes, African padauk is probably not a good substitute due to the color difference as the red was apparently valued.

"Beech" probably refers to Fagus sylvatica. This was and is a common utility wood. European beech does differ slightly in appearance from American beeches, but as it is easily available there is probably no need to seek substitutes.

"Box" is any of several species of boxwood (Buxus species) sourced from Europe and the Caucasus. The species from the Americas, and from Africa, are more-closely related to each other, with the Europe/Asia species more isolate. The most-common species sourced in Europe was probably Buxus semipervirens, but there arguments amongst some taxonomists as to whether or not the species from Turkey/Iran/parts of the Mediterranean are synonyms of B. semipervirens or not. In old records I've seen it referred to as "box", "boxwood", "Turkish boxwood". Box was used for ornamental turnings, engravings (block prints), musical instruments, etc, and the best could be rather expensive at times. I've long suspected that the wood used for cheap knife handles was sourced from offcuts and other wood that wasn't suitable for other uses, but have never found records to determine this. European boxwood is still available in the lumber trade; Castello boxwood is probably not a good substitute due to color and grain differences.

"Campeche" in old records appears to refer to two very different woods, and I suspect this is where Denig got turned around. It usually referred to mohoganys (Swietenia species) from Mexico/Central America, but I've also seen a couple mentions of "Campeche wood" in what were clearly references to logwood. Many of the loggers cut logwood as a primary product, and mohogany as a secondary product. My suspicion is that Denig got the two confused. I've seen one original pre-1890 butcher knife with what appeared to be a handle made from mohogany. It was a common wood in the trade so it wouldn't be a surprise if someone tried it for knife scales, particularly since it ages to a reddish brown. Available today in the timber trade.

"Camwood" is Baphia nitida. (It also appears in old records as "barwood"--possibly a source of confusion. Lord knows we don't have enough confusion on this topic.....) This is another red wood, often used as a source for dye but sold in the period for small work and knife handles as well. I've found this one a couple times in the specialty timber trade.

"Coco" most probably referred to cocobolo; more likely it was a trade name for any of the Central American Dahlbergia species. Easily found in the timber trade today.

"Logwood" was listed by Denig, but as noted above under "Campeche" I think this was due to confusion on his part. Logwood was valued as a dyewood, and since any piece of logwood could be used to make dye, there were few other uses in the trade back then. Available in the trade today.

"Red wood" could have been any of the reddish woods. From the context of many of the old records, I'd go with Andaman padauk or barrwood.

"Vermillion" seems to have been used in the trade to refer to Andaman padauk. I've not been able to connect the name to any other wood.
Amazing info here!! I think Iā€™ve read it twice already. I may need to read it at three or four more time :)
 
If you go down to the local lumberyard today and ask for "red oak", you'll be shown a selection of what passes in the trade for "red oak"--they don't break it down by species (because, really, who cares as long as the woods generally work and finish the same?). Similarly, asking for "white oak" will get you any of the "white oaks". If you're dealing with a local sawmill, they may identify the woods by local names and not even know which are white oaks and which are red oaks. (So is "burr oak" a white oak or a red oak, and how do we know the oak was correctly identified in the first place?). (For the curious, "burr oak" is technically Quercus macrocarpa, and a white oak.) I deal a lot with a few small sawmills, and won't buy oak without doing some testing so I know what I'm getting--because for some uses it does matter. But much of the time, it doesn't matter today.

Species names didn't matter a lot back in the day, either. You might place an order with an importer or timber company for "Brazilian rosewood" and get any of the Dahlbergia species from (roughly) Central America; more likely, you went down to the dock or warehouse and picked out the wood (and as long as it matched, and the working characteristics were the same, who cared about species?).

We have names like "box" and "camwood" and "barrwood" and "coco" and (according to Denig and pretty much no one else) "logwood" described in fur trade records as being used for knife handles. Records of buyers in Europe identified or specified "red wood", "box", "beech", "Campeche", "coco", "vermillion", and a couple others. These are common names or trade names (much like "red oak" or "white oak" is used in the trade today). In a few cases, we can get multiple names ("red wood" and "coco", "red wood" and "Campeche") in records that seem to be referring to the same order or orders. If we want to know what specific woods were being used, we have to do some work.

If we study old records (ships bills of lading, taxes, timber dealers, cabinet shops, cloth trade, etc), and examining/identifying original knives and furniture where the woods were identified at time of purchase, we get the following:

"Barrwood": based on records and a few extant pieces of furniture, this one most-commonly (but see also "Camwood" below) appears to be Andaman padauk Pterocarpus dalbergioides. Originally from the Andaman Islands and India. I've also seen this wood called "vermillion" or "vermillion wood" in old records. Ages to a reddish or purple-ish brown. Hard to find today (not enough data for a CITES listing, but possibly Threatened or Endangered). The common substitute today is African padauk, but the African species is more brown, lacking the reddish tone as it ages. For our purposes, African padauk is probably not a good substitute due to the color difference as the red was apparently valued.

"Beech" probably refers to Fagus sylvatica. This was and is a common utility wood. European beech does differ slightly in appearance from American beeches, but as it is easily available there is probably no need to seek substitutes.

"Box" is any of several species of boxwood (Buxus species) sourced from Europe and the Caucasus. The species from the Americas, and from Africa, are more-closely related to each other, with the Europe/Asia species more isolate. The most-common species sourced in Europe was probably Buxus semipervirens, but there arguments amongst some taxonomists as to whether or not the species from Turkey/Iran/parts of the Mediterranean are synonyms of B. semipervirens or not. In old records I've seen it referred to as "box", "boxwood", "Turkish boxwood". Box was used for ornamental turnings, engravings (block prints), musical instruments, etc, and the best could be rather expensive at times. I've long suspected that the wood used for cheap knife handles was sourced from offcuts and other wood that wasn't suitable for other uses, but have never found records to determine this. European boxwood is still available in the lumber trade; Castello boxwood is probably not a good substitute due to color and grain differences.

"Campeche" in old records appears to refer to two very different woods, and I suspect this is where Denig got turned around. It usually referred to mohoganys (Swietenia species) from Mexico/Central America, but I've also seen a couple mentions of "Campeche wood" in what were clearly references to logwood. Many of the loggers cut logwood as a primary product, and mohogany as a secondary product. My suspicion is that Denig got the two confused. I've seen one original pre-1890 butcher knife with what appeared to be a handle made from mohogany. It was a common wood in the trade so it wouldn't be a surprise if someone tried it for knife scales, particularly since it ages to a reddish brown. Available today in the timber trade.

"Camwood" is Baphia nitida. (It also appears in old records as "barwood"--possibly a source of confusion. Lord knows we don't have enough confusion on this topic.....) This is another red wood, often used as a source for dye but sold in the period for small work and knife handles as well. I've found this one a couple times in the specialty timber trade.

"Coco" most probably referred to cocobolo; more likely it was a trade name for any of the Central American Dahlbergia species. Easily found in the timber trade today.

"Logwood" was listed by Denig, but as noted above under "Campeche" I think this was due to confusion on his part. Logwood was valued as a dyewood, and since any piece of logwood could be used to make dye, there were few other uses in the trade back then. Available in the trade today.

"Red wood" could have been any of the reddish woods. From the context of many of the old records, I'd go with Andaman padauk or barrwood.

"Vermillion" seems to have been used in the trade to refer to Andaman padauk. I've not been able to connect the name to any other wood.
Epic post! Really good information!

Notchy Bob
 
If you go down to the local lumberyard today and ask for "red oak", you'll be shown a selection of what passes in the trade for "red oak"--they don't break it down by species (because, really, who cares as long as the woods generally work and finish the same?). Similarly, asking for "white oak" will get you any of the "white oaks". If you're dealing with a local sawmill, they may identify the woods by local names and not even know which are white oaks and which are red oaks. (So is "burr oak" a white oak or a red oak, and how do we know the oak was correctly identified in the first place?). (For the curious, "burr oak" is technically Quercus macrocarpa, and a white oak.) I deal a lot with a few small sawmills, and won't buy oak without doing some testing so I know what I'm getting--because for some uses it does matter. But much of the time, it doesn't matter today.

Species names didn't matter a lot back in the day, either. You might place an order with an importer or timber company for "Brazilian rosewood" and get any of the Dahlbergia species from (roughly) Central America; more likely, you went down to the dock or warehouse and picked out the wood (and as long as it matched, and the working characteristics were the same, who cared about species?).

We have names like "box" and "camwood" and "barrwood" and "coco" and (according to Denig and pretty much no one else) "logwood" described in fur trade records as being used for knife handles. Records of buyers in Europe identified or specified "red wood", "box", "beech", "Campeche", "coco", "vermillion", and a couple others. These are common names or trade names (much like "red oak" or "white oak" is used in the trade today). In a few cases, we can get multiple names ("red wood" and "coco", "red wood" and "Campeche") in records that seem to be referring to the same order or orders. If we want to know what specific woods were being used, we have to do some work.

If we study old records (ships bills of lading, taxes, timber dealers, cabinet shops, cloth trade, etc), and examining/identifying original knives and furniture where the woods were identified at time of purchase, we get the following:

"Barrwood": based on records and a few extant pieces of furniture, this one most-commonly (but see also "Camwood" below) appears to be Andaman padauk Pterocarpus dalbergioides. Originally from the Andaman Islands and India. I've also seen this wood called "vermillion" or "vermillion wood" in old records. Ages to a reddish or purple-ish brown. Hard to find today (not enough data for a CITES listing, but possibly Threatened or Endangered). The common substitute today is African padauk, but the African species is more brown, lacking the reddish tone as it ages. For our purposes, African padauk is probably not a good substitute due to the color difference as the red was apparently valued.

"Beech" probably refers to Fagus sylvatica. This was and is a common utility wood. European beech does differ slightly in appearance from American beeches, but as it is easily available there is probably no need to seek substitutes.

"Box" is any of several species of boxwood (Buxus species) sourced from Europe and the Caucasus. The species from the Americas, and from Africa, are more-closely related to each other, with the Europe/Asia species more isolate. The most-common species sourced in Europe was probably Buxus semipervirens, but there arguments amongst some taxonomists as to whether or not the species from Turkey/Iran/parts of the Mediterranean are synonyms of B. semipervirens or not. In old records I've seen it referred to as "box", "boxwood", "Turkish boxwood". Box was used for ornamental turnings, engravings (block prints), musical instruments, etc, and the best could be rather expensive at times. I've long suspected that the wood used for cheap knife handles was sourced from offcuts and other wood that wasn't suitable for other uses, but have never found records to determine this. European boxwood is still available in the lumber trade; Castello boxwood is probably not a good substitute due to color and grain differences.

"Campeche" in old records appears to refer to two very different woods, and I suspect this is where Denig got turned around. It usually referred to mohoganys (Swietenia species) from Mexico/Central America, but I've also seen a couple mentions of "Campeche wood" in what were clearly references to logwood. Many of the loggers cut logwood as a primary product, and mohogany as a secondary product. My suspicion is that Denig got the two confused. I've seen one original pre-1890 butcher knife with what appeared to be a handle made from mohogany. It was a common wood in the trade so it wouldn't be a surprise if someone tried it for knife scales, particularly since it ages to a reddish brown. Available today in the timber trade.

"Camwood" is Baphia nitida. (It also appears in old records as "barwood"--possibly a source of confusion. Lord knows we don't have enough confusion on this topic.....) This is another red wood, often used as a source for dye but sold in the period for small work and knife handles as well. I've found this one a couple times in the specialty timber trade.

"Coco" most probably referred to cocobolo; more likely it was a trade name for any of the Central American Dahlbergia species. Easily found in the timber trade today.

"Logwood" was listed by Denig, but as noted above under "Campeche" I think this was due to confusion on his part. Logwood was valued as a dyewood, and since any piece of logwood could be used to make dye, there were few other uses in the trade back then. Available in the trade today.

"Red wood" could have been any of the reddish woods. From the context of many of the old records, I'd go with Andaman padauk or barrwood.

"Vermillion" seems to have been used in the trade to refer to Andaman padauk. I've not been able to connect the name to any other wood.
This is excellent information, thank you. And while we are on the subject of scalping knives, may I provide the OP with a list of politicians who may honor themselves as test subjects....
 
Yes, thanks. Britain had colonies in the British Honduras, etc. where I think many of these exotic woods came from. Logwood was also used as a red dye to the best of my knowledge, so, there was a "round trip" the wood going to Sheffield and used on knife handles and then shipped back to America. On the fur trade inventory lists I think barrwood and camwood were mentioned and Denig mentioned logwood. My problem is with the "red handled" trade knives (scalpers). What are they listing? barrwood? camwood, sort sort of other wood that was dyed red?
For anyone who knows, is there any modern sort for "boxwood" which seems like one of the more common woods used. On the image Wick posted and I copied- that scalper has just a "plain old handle" but any idea on the wood?
Thanks. Really appreciating this discussion.
 
Yes, thanks. Britain had colonies in the British Honduras, etc. where I think many of these exotic woods came from. Logwood was also used as a red dye to the best of my knowledge, so, there was a "round trip" the wood going to Sheffield and used on knife handles and then shipped back to America. On the fur trade inventory lists I think barrwood and camwood were mentioned and Denig mentioned logwood. My problem is with the "red handled" trade knives (scalpers). What are they listing? barrwood? camwood, sort sort of other wood that was dyed red?
For anyone who knows, is there any modern sort for "boxwood" which seems like one of the more common woods used. On the image Wick posted and I copied- that scalper has just a "plain old handle" but any idea on the wood?
Thanks. Really appreciating this discussion.
Logwood was used as a dyestock, generally used to produce black/blue/purple dyes. There were also some minor medicinal uses. Denig is the only person in all the records I've consulted who ever mentioned any other use for it. Then as now, logwood was usually sold as "chips", not as boards or logs. Chips were of no use for making knife handles.

In some instances where I was able to track back individual orders, "barrwood" and "camwood" were mentioned and used interchangeably with "red handles", suggesting these were the woods used on knives with red handles. Barrwood was probably Andaman padauk. Camwood was and is camwood. If you want boxwood, get boxwood.

All of these woods--Andaman padauk (barrwood), camwood (camwood), English/Turkish boxwood (boxwood), cocobolo (coco), mohogany (Campeche), European beech (beech)--are available in the exotic timber trade, though availability of some is intermittent. Best sources for small quantities are companies that supply woodturners or carvers. Suppliers for luthiers, cabinetmakers, and marquetry workers are other possible sources. Ebay is another source. (My best source of beech has actually been shipping pallets from a local factory. . . .)

The Furnis knife handle in post #66 appears to be beech, but not having examined it I can't say for sure.
 
Boxwood is a shrub, commonly used in hedges and the clearing of such hedges in the urban expansion might well have created a market. It has been applied to English hand tools since Adam, is now rare to find unless with vintage woodworking hand tools. Currently Beech, Ash and Hornbeam (European) seem popular for the same role and may be more readily available.
J
 
I'd like to get boxwood if I could find it. On the logwood, I've lost the source but years ago I read there was an additive or mordant used in which a red dye could be obtained. As stated, I too have only found Denig as the sole source mentioning logwood. I've never seen any art work where the native people had a red handled knife- the point being what exactly was "red"- bright cherry red or a more reddish brown. Also, to the best of my knowledge these red handled knives were almost exclusively used by native people. I've never run across a European mentioning a red handled knife.
Another key to the mystery might exist across the pond- some source in Sheffield that mentioned dye or wood types, etc. but I don't have any.
 
I'd like to get boxwood if I could find it.

As mentioned previously--twice--boxwood is commercially available: you'll probably have to order it, but it is still available in the timber trade. All it takes to find it is a Google search. If you order from England, you can sometimes even get it in large quantities (100+ board feet).

Also, to the best of my knowledge these red handled knives were almost exclusively used by native people. I've never run across a European mentioning a red handled knife.

I can point to accounts where traders had one knife in quantity (e.g. "7 doz med sclpr") in their inventories, knives were sold to both Europeans and Native buyers, and the knives sold to the Natives were described as having "red handles". It seems to have been a market preference on the part of some Native buyers, while the Euros didn't seem to care. Or may be it wasn't seen as worth mentioning, as knife handle materials seem to have drawn comment only when unusual.

Mention of use of a scalper by Euros is a bit more uncommon, but comments by Catlin and others can bring a little light on the topic. Catlin expressed satisfaction--almost some smugness--at the thought of the surprise of folks who visited his exhibit when they saw that "scalping knives" were nothing more than common butcher knives.

Another key to the mystery might exist across the pond- some source in Sheffield that mentioned dye or wood types, etc. but I don't have any.

The information I previously provided was gathered in part in a few weeks spent poring over business records in Sheffield, Birmingham, and London. The woods I listed where what was being bought to satisfy orders from middlemen who in turn sold to the fur trade companies, or sold directly to the fur trade companies. Part of the information was gathered by examining a few hundred original trade knives, and where possible, getting lab IDs on the wood and (on a few specimends) the steel used.
 
Yes, I think the terms butcher and scalper were often used interchangeably so that it is difficult at times (if reading a diary of a mountain man) to know exactly what knife is being described.
 
If one was interested in a great conversation regarding "Scalper" scholarship, I highly recommend going over to "frontierfolk.net" then go to the Native American Reenacting forum and then going to the "What is a typical English Scalper" conversation. Ken Hamilton has produced many documents from Archeological digs and papers. Ken is also a noted craftsman producing knives, axes, fire steels, pipes, etc. Again, if truly interested, you will thank me. Cheers, Doug T.
 
Is the Frontier Folk Forum still operational? It has been a while since I checked in there, like several years. Traffic on that board seemed to slow down, and the last time I tried to go there, my computer blocked it, and said the site was unsafe. It would be great if the problem has been fixed and the board is active.

I have two scalping knives by Ken Hamilton. One is of a very early, mid-18th century style copied from an original by Parker, and the other is a somewhat later "Cross L" scalper. I believe Ken's interest is exclusively 18th century. He said as much in correspondence we had a few years ago. He really had no interest in the early 19th century "mountain man" era or the Rocky Mountain fur trade, at least at that time, but his knowledge of northeastern colonial life and associated artifacts is formidable.

Best regards,

Notchy Bob
 
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