Epoxy bedding?

[1BadDart]

I'm working on my .40 caliber Virginia rifle, this is going to be for 25 yard offhand matches. I bedded around the breech/tang and about 12" or so yesterday. Today I removed the barrel from the stock, the bedding is about .035" thick where it ends toward the muzzle. Should I bed it on out until it runs out to 0?

Thanks, Justin

 

[EC121]

Other than reinforcing the breech area for a few inches, bedding isn't needed. But if it is a swamped barrel, the bedding will get thicker going forward. It is easier to use expanding Gorilla Glue to fill up the slack areas. Also the gap might change and cause some clearance after the lugs are drilled. I would wait to bed the barrel until after the lugs are drilled. Then the pins can be installed to set the channel clearance.

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
The only reason to bed a barrel channel on a muzzleloader is to strengthen the thin wood along the barrel channel. I suppose if you did a really bad barrel mortise it might help but if the barrel, particularly at the breech is properly inlet, no bedding will improve accuracy. You can add epoxy all the way to the muzzle, it won't matter with respect to accuracy especially at 25 yards.

dave

 

[nhmoose]

When the inletting is that open, I say keep bedding you fixing the bad inletting that went to big in the first place. Bedding compound beats Gorilla glue that expands on drying.

 

[EC121]

Bedding compound beats Gorilla glue that expands on drying.

Quite true.

I usually just bed the breech face to seal the end grain of the wood.

The expansion is what I want. If needed, I just use a few small drops of it scattered out only the bottom flat of the barrel channel to take up the slack between the barrel and wood. After the barrel is pinned, it expands into a thin layer in the gap if there is one. Not near as messy as trying to bed an entire barrel.

 

[FlinterNick]

The only time i use bedding material is to reinforce a weak area, spot or broken area.

I bedded the forearms and breech area on my Navy Arms Charleville because the stock was in poor shape, very brittle birch stock and it disconnected at the forearm (two piece stock).

 

[doubleset]

I agree that bedding a muzzle loader doesn't get you what it typically does in bedding the action of a contemporary rifle. There's no point to that. But in addition to the "reinforcing" benefit of bedding (or partially bedding) a muzzle loader, it can also be beneficial to bed it (even if only "spot bedding" is used) to eliminate stress that the barrel (and breech, and tang) may put on the stock when the barrel is fastened into it. This is what I've done with my Traditions Crockett rifle so that inserting the wedge, tightening the screws into the lock, and tightening the tang screw don't put excessive or uneven tension on things (particularly the stock wood since, nothing else on the barrel/breech/tang is going to bend!). I've also done a bit of this "bedding" around the trigger so that it can be removed and replaced reliably and without having to tinker with it every time that's done. Of course, fully careful and competent inletting eliminates the need for most of this.

 

[1BadDart]

This stock was inletted very deep, it was dep enough that the drum was going to be very high on the flat of the barrel. I bedded the breech end about a foot, afterwards I found that if the stock was pulled up to the barrel it created an arch in the stock. So, I went back and ground out about six inches of bedding, then installed the barrel, clamped the breech and muzzle. After that I made the stock straight between the two ends, marked the barrel and put four small spots of epoxy along the barrel as pillars. This am I removed the barrel and put four sections of epoxy about three inches each, reinstalled the barrel, clamped it on the pillars I did yesterday. Now the stock will be straight and the barrel will have solid contact patches in the stock.

 

[The Appalachian]

I would bet very heavy odds that had the original longrifle builders had such things as epoxies and the knowledge surrounding the use, they darn well would have taken advantage of them.

 

[doubleset]

Not so much a fan of hide glue, are you?

 

[FlinterNick]

I would bet very heavy odds that had the original longrifle builders had such things as epoxies and the knowledge surrounding the use, they darn well would have taken advantage of them.

I’d argue that those odds are not heavy at all actually very light. Had an epoxy recipe been formulated, it would have been at an incredible cost with very limited supply as they simply did not have the means to extract and manufacture adhesives in large qualities.

Most military guns as well as customized rifles were made with what was available and what was the most cost effective, a small thing like brass front sight may have been omitted due to the supply of copper, a forge steel sight might have been made.

We don’t often think of things this way but raw materials were not cheap back then. Pin stock, spring stock, screw thread guages, files all came at a high cost.

 

[FlinterNick]

Quite true.

I usually just bed the breech face to seal the end grain of the wood.

The expansion is what I want. If needed, I just use a few small drops of it scattered out only the bottom flat of the barrel channel to take up the slack between the barrel and wood. After the barrel is pinned, it expands into a thin layer in the gap if there is one. Not near as messy as trying to bed an entire barrel.

Personally I think sealing the breech up with Epoxy as a way of reinforcing it is not a bad option but how much strength does it actually add? I mean if the inletting is too tight, it will likely eventually expand and chip as epoxy causes stress in the wood.

I’ve always felt that epoxy is a last option to correct a mistake such as gaps along the side the of a barrel mortise.

I once did epoxy a butt plate screw as it caused a split down the grain to the wrist, I filled the screw hole and cracked area with a thinned epoxy and then dyed the wood very dark to conceal the line in the butt, it has its uses but bedding such a long black powder barrel in my opinion is overkill.

I personally seal up end grains with thinned varnish until its completely absorbed (impregnated) into the wood, this has always kept nose areas and butt ends nice an clean and durable.

 

[The Appalachian]

I’d argue that those odds are not heavy at all actually very light. Had an epoxy recipe been formulated, it would have been at an incredible cost with very limited supply as they simply did not have the means to extract and manufacture adhesives in large qualities.

Most military guns as well as customized rifles were made with what was available and what was the most cost effective, a small thing like brass front sight may have been omitted due to the supply of copper, a forge steel sight might have been made.

We don’t often think of things this way but raw materials were not cheap back then. Pin stock, spring stock, screw thread guages, files all came at a high cost.

Your entire reply/argument is leaving that period in the primitive state history knows it to be without having a mind open enough to accept the fact that HAD materials such as we know today been available to them, they would have used them.
Why were such things like epoxies invented? Because at some point in time the known prior adhesives were not sufficient enough, or, necessity is the mother of all invention.
With your logic man would never have progressed past the rock and sharp stick....I mean, however did we get to the impact ignited primer compounds and smokeless powder used in today's weapons. Because somebody invented it and it became the standard because it worked.
The timeline of invention is subject only to someone overcoming a need for something new. Still betting heavy odds because as primitive as those colonial times were from our persective, they were taking full advantage of what they considered at the time to be cutting edge technology. And I'll bet even heavier odds not a single solitary one of them considered themselves as primitive.

 

[doubleset]

I am reminded of the period when our kids were quite young and there were times in various discussions when we finally just had to say "No more what ifs!!" Once you start fleshing out different possibilities in what might be different possible worlds, the alternative causal paths can become very twisted as you add first one, and then another, "But what if ...?". I remember such classic discussions and debates as "What if a lion fought a walrus?" I miss those days. So thanks for this start down the path of "What if they had epoxy? No, what if it was too expensive to use? But what it had been invented because ...? ..."

 

[doubleset]

I personally seal up end grains with thinned varnish until its completely absorbed (impregnated) into the wood, this has always kept nose areas and butt ends nice an clean and durable.

Something that's really excellent for this purpose (unless you're striving for period correctness) is Minwax Wood Hardener.

 

[FlinterNick]

Your entire reply/argument is leaving that period in the primitive state history knows it to be without having a mind open enough to accept the fact that HAD materials such as we know today been available to them, they would have used them.
Why were such things like epoxies invented? Because at some point in time the known prior adhesives were not sufficient enough, or, necessity is the mother of all invention.
With your logic man would never have progressed past the rock and sharp stick....I mean, however did we get to the impact ignited primer compounds and smokeless powder used in today's weapons. Because somebody invented it and it became the standard because it worked.
The timeline of invention is subject only to someone overcoming a need for something new. Still betting heavy odds because as primitive as those colonial times were from our persective, they were taking full advantage of what they considered at the time to be cutting edge technology. And I'll bet even heavier odds not a single solitary one of them considered themselves as primitive.

well I’m only contextualizing the 18th century as it was.

The economics of the era don’t change bc of your little epoxy fantasy.

sorry ….. and not sorry

 

[DuncNZ]

Some shooting competitions do not allow epoxy bedding . Only bedding with wood glued in with animal glues is permitted , the ML World Champs springs to mind .

 

[The Appalachian]

well I’m only contextualizing the 18th century as it was.

The economics of the era don’t change bc of your little epoxy fantasy.

sorry ….. and not sorry

"In 1774, colonial Americans had the highest standard of living on earth."

According to Mt Vernon dot Org.

 

[The Crisco Kid]

Something that's really excellent for this purpose (unless you're striving for period correctness) is Minwax Wood Hardener.

I've seen this product and have often wondered about it. Does it actually penetrate and harden the wood or does it act like a polyurethane finish that also hardens when it cures? Maybe I'm splitting hairs here by asking.

Also, If my ancestors would have had BARs I'm sure they would have used them to fight the British.

 

[doubleset]

Does it actually penetrate and harden the wood or does it act like a polyurethane finish that also hardens when it cures? Maybe I'm splitting hairs here by asking.

It penetrates. Fundamentally, it's a liquified plastic that is absorbed into the grain. It's amazing how well it absorbs. I've just been using it to repair some portions of treated deck stringers. If you leave it on the surface where you've brushed it (and typically you want a couple of applications or so because it absorbs so well), the residue on top that does not get absorbed will dry in a kind of "gloss" way which you may want to sand down. Or just be real careful and don't use too much of it. Expensive, but very neat stuff.