Escopeta, anyone?

[BrownBear]

...why didn't they carry over to the mechanical design of the "French" flintlock?

Heck, drop them an email and see what they have to say about it. :rotf:

 

[Artificer]

The question then becomes "if grooved frizzens offer some advantages", why didn't they carry over to the mechanical design of the "French" flintlock?

I have read that on the 17th century Spanish Miquelet locks, they dovetailed a grooved steel face onto the frizzen. It was done so it could be replaced rather easily. Then in the early 18th century when they got better at making steel, the entire frizzen was made from steel and no need for that insert.

This is only my speculation, but I believe the striated/grooved frizzen face was first used due to the low quality steel in the early frizzens. The striated edges would harden easier when using case hardening. They would also show a smaller surface area to the flint and thus be easier to strike off a small piece of steel that we know as a spark. The typical "Gun Spall" Flints in use did not have as good of an edge as the later French and what we know of as "English" Flints today. However, since grooving the frizzen had been done that way for so long, they continued to do it well past the time it was still needed, after steel manufacture became better.

There were some Italian, Dutch, Balkan and some other Flintlock frizzens that were still made with grooved frizzens into the early 19th century for the "Mediterranean Market." Again my speculation, but I believe it was done because the customers were used to grooved frizzens and wanted them made that way, long after it was needed to be done.

Gus

 

[Rokon]

Not all frizzens were grooved. I am holding in my formerly nicotine stained fingers a sensational Spanish pistol made in 1824 with a fancy Miquelet
lock and a plain frizzen. Recently I had an opportunity to handle a matched pair of Spanish pistols with Miquelet locks dated 1735 with plain frizzens.

We just can't generalize.

 

[Artificer]

I am afraid you lost me on the point you are trying to make in the post immediately above. In my post above, I was replying to your reply where you asked the following question.

The question then becomes "if grooved frizzens offer some advantages", why didn't they carry over to the mechanical design of the "French" flintlock?

Gus

 

[Hermanoshawken]

Hi. Thank you all for your comments. AMR and Dikar (Mendi) made many years ago in Spain replicas of Spanish musket 1757. The Pedersoli replica is not very accurate, as the Spanish musket was 18,3 mm (0.720 inches or 12 gauge), not 0.690 inches. Best regards.

 

[Hermanoshawken]

Hi. A few weeks ago I was in the museum of the Spanish army, which is in the city of Toledo. In it there are very good Spanish hunting shotguns (escopetas) with "patilla lock" and Madrid barrels, made in iron horseshoes. Greetings.

 

[Hermanoshawken]

 

[smoothshooter]

Have you ever had any trouble wifh the bands sliding around without band springs, or do you not shoot them?

 

[curator]

Toledo Steel was some of the best produced in Europe in the 16th century, so grooved frizzens may not be an adaption that allowed for poor metal. Spain suffered from a lack of high quality flint, having to make do with low quality Chert, Pyrite or Quartz from the Pyrenees. Even crude spalls of these minerals will strike sparks against the hard, grooved miquelet frizzen. The English were dismissive of Spanish arms during the Peninsular Wars but the "miquelet" was every bit as good on the battlefield as the Brown Bess.

 

[Wes/Tex]

Few will know or admit that. Spanish arms ran over a wide range and even today many look down their noses at miguelet locks...but the Spanish were sold on their superiority over flint locks with some justification.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Gus.
Interesting topic. I would like to add to your comments. Below are some photos. The first two photos show the early style seperate grooved frizzen plate dovetailed in the frizzen, and held firm with a set screw. Actually, a clever idea. Would be easier and less costly to replace just the face plate.
The third photo shows a pair of early Spanish miquelet locks. The top lock is an original pre-1700 (I believe) lock. The bottom lock is a copy of a 1650's miquelet lock offered by The Rifle Shoppe. Note the similarities!! But also, note the length of the top screw on the original. This would more easily accomodate what Gus calls a flint "pawl". More like a chunk of jagged flint vs a flat beveled flint we are familar with.
The last photo shows two Mediterranean type pistols. One with a grooved frizzen, the other with a flat face. The flint available in this region of the world was sub-par compared to the English black or French amber. It simply does not spark as well. Maybe too soft (?). This may also be why guns manufactured in or exported to the Mediterranean tend to have extra strong mainsprings.

Shooting with both miquelet and French style locks, with both grooved and flat frizzens, using English flints, I really can't tell the difference in spark quality.

Anyway, my two cents. :haha:
Rick.

 

[Artificer]

Hi Rick,

GREAT pics and very interesting! Thank you.

I'm sorry if something I wrote was not clear. I wasn't talking about a pawl, but rather a "Gunspall" shaped flint as opposed to what was known for much of the 18th century as a "French (shaped) Flint" and we know today as an "English (shaped} Flint." For example, Hamilton and Bailey both mention that English Flintnappers did not know how to make French shaped flints until immediately before or during the AWI. The following link shows a photo of what Gunspall flints looked like, though they seem to have been made of French Amber flint, rather than the darker English Flint. http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showpost.php?post/632735/

Curator mentioned that "Spain suffered from a lack of high quality flint, having to make do with low quality Chert, Pyrite or Quartz from the Pyrenees. Even crude spalls of these minerals will strike sparks against the hard, grooved miquelet frizzen."

I imagine those "crude spalls" looked more like the Gunspalls shown in the linked post, though I am not certain about that.

Gus

P.S. As an example of what was known until the AWI in Britain as "French (shaped) Flints" and what we now call "English (shaped) Flints", here is a link showing the shape of the flints I was referring to: https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/180/1/FLINTS

 

[BillinOregon]

Ricky, you always have the best toys!

 

[Hermanoshawken]

One thing seems clear: The "patilla lock" (miquelet lock) produces good sparks even with rough flints. The strength of this lock (and mainspring), continued used in percussion shotguns. Even some Basque gunsmith did some central fire or cartridge shotguns with such lock. Greetings.

 

[Commodore Swab]

Some comments, I have been away for a few years and just came back. In regards to grooved frizzens carrying over to French style locks. They did.

I have an original pre 1757 Spanish French Style lock stamped with the Crowned R. While the frizzen is missing a small piece and also has a small crack you can clearly see groves worn down on the frizzen face. I built a blunderbuss around this lock. I have also done a Trabuco (Ripoll style stock) and pistol miquelets. I have an original Italian lock that I haven't decided what to use on yet as well as a sliding pan escopeta using some of TRS parts as a starting point.

 

[BillinOregon]

Very nice, Commodore. Don't be scarce around here!

 

[rickystl]

Hi Gus.
Oh, ok. I somewhat misunderstood your use here of the term Gunspawl in this case. My error. And thanks for the Link to the photo of same. I had forgotton about this. But now I remember reading about this a long time ago. Whereas the French cut flint was really a product of about the time of the AWI, or a bit earlier. This may account for the generalized term "gun flint" came about. Where the British and French would ship small barrels of gun flints for use by the Troops overseas. Pre-knapped in the configuration we are familiar with today.(?)
But thanks for the Link to the photo of the Gunspalls. I saved that in my library.
I've just always wondered why the need for the longer top screws on many of the very early, or early styled locks. And the use of Gunspawls - and possibly how the flint was wrapped in the jaws, may account for this longer screw (?). But I'm not sure. Just speculating here.
Below is a photo of an original Caucasion miquelet lock. The flint is new. But notice the original leather wrap and how it is held in the jaws. Interesting.
Rick.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Herman.
In actual use, I have found this to be true. While I don't notice any difference in spark quality, the flints do tend to last longer between knappings/replacement. It seems the grooves in the frizzen may act as somewhat of a self-knapping feature (?).
I've also wondered if the original idea (thinking) of a grooved frizzen face might have carried over from the grooves in the wheel of a wheellock? Of course, I don't know. Just another of my deep thinking on this. :haha:
Rick.

 

[rickystl]

Hi Commodore.
WOW!! What a beautiful trio of guns!!! I especially like that Ripoll style miquelet pistol!!! Great.
If you have an opportunity, would love to see more photos of that pistol in the "Photos" section of the Forum. Super neat. Thanks for posting them.
Rick. :hatsoff:

 

[robertdale]

have to agree with the post. some people think the world ends at the Mississippi river. :v