Euroarms P58 "Parker Hale"

[RiflemanZ]

Hello,

Back in 2011 I purchased a "Parker Hale" P58 Naval Rifle off of Dixie Gunworks for around $1,000, thinking that it was a Parker Hale gun. I receive the gun and I notice that it's stamped "Euroarms" as well as "Parker Hale" on the barrel. So I figure that the gun was build by Euroarms using PH parts. No big deal as this rifle was mainly going to be for reenacting and occasional live firing. I was assuming however that the "Parker Hale" stamped on the barrel meant that it had a 1:48 twist with progressive rifling. So for the price point I was satisfied.


Fast forward to a couple of days ago. I've been getting the smoke pole bug again and so I started looking up load data to make this Enfield shoot.

After some digging, I discover that this rifle actually has nothing to do with PH, but in fact is a poor replica of a good replica. I can get over stuff like sharp edges, and incorrect lines ec etc, but the 1:66 twist barrel is what kicked me in the pants. It donned on me pretty quickly that I spent over $1,000 on a rifle I was expecting to shoot minie balls, but has a twist meant for patched round balls... Needless to say I'm not a happy camper but since it;s been so long since I made the purchase, and "buyer beware" is a thing, I just don't have the energy to get worked up over it.


So right now I'm at the point of asking if this thing is worth keeping as a shooter with the expectation of using minie/ conical bullets or should I just sell it and use to proceeds to help fund something that isn't going to raise my blood pressure?



(I have live fired it in the past but did not measure for accuracy, I was using track of the wolf .577 Minie balls and between 50-70gr FFg Goex)

 

[ZUG]

I think you will need to visit the range again and take some Minie's & round balls with you. You will need to experiment with each and judge for yourself on what you want this rifle to do. I have a 1863 Remington "Zouave" and I just shoot Minies out of it with 60 gr of 3F for fun. It will hold "minute of gallon jug" at 75 yds which is just fine for me. :grin: :wink:

 

[bones92]

Did you measure the twist at 1:66, or read that somewhere?

I would see how well you can get it to shoot with Minies first, before being dissatisfied.

But I agree... DGW should not advertise something as being a Parker Hale rifle if it is not.

 

[RiflemanZ]

When I discovered that it is a Euroarms rifle with a "Parker Hale" stamp I looked up the specs and sure enough the manufacturer says it's a 1:66 twist in a 33" barrel.

The fact that Dixie advertised it as a Parker Hale gun with a price to match is what gets my goat..

 

[TFoley]

It is my understanding, based on examination of a number of Euroarms post-Parker-Hale 'Parker-Hale' firearms, that Golden Hillock Road works provided an unspecified number of Parker-Hale barrels in the fire-sale. While I can't make any judgement on your particular arm, I suggest that you remove the barrel from the stock and see what proof marks are stamped on it. If they are Italian, then you do indeed have an Italian-made gun named 'in memory' of Parker-Hale, but if the stamps are Birmingham proofs, then you do, in fact, have a P-H barrel.

I don't know if the longer barrels had the progressive rifle that you mention, although the Musketoon certainly does. I'll pull my old advertisements and take a look.

tac

 

[TFoley]

Well, Sir, it seems that some P-H P58 barrels had 1:66 and some had 1:48.

Pull your barrel and tell us who made it.

tac

 

[RiflemanZ]

It has Italian proof marks with the 2011 production code "CF". So when I bought it in 2011 it was basically a brand new gun with a PH stamp on it.

 

[TFoley]

Yupm', it's Italian all the way from end to end.

Not a bit of a Parker-Hale in 'er, I'm sorry to say.

I take the view that what you have is about as much a Parker-Hale as a Pedersoli Hawken is a Hawken.

A great shame, I feel for you, Sir, I really do. :shake:

CF, BTW, is 2010.

tac

 

[Zonie]

I seem to recall that the various original Enfield rifled muskets were made with different twist rates.
One of them (was it the 2 band or 3 band?), was something around a 100+:1(?) and it was made to shoot Minie' balls.

As for the 1:66 twist in the barrel, just because that sounds like a popular twist for a round ball doesn't make it barrel that will shoot a round ball well.

Good roundball shooting barrels have rifling grooves that are cut over .006" deep. Many of the best are over .010 deep.

The rifling used in a barrel made to shoot Minie' balls is shallow, often around .003" deep.
Minie' ball barrels often only have 3 wide grooves and lands which is also different from most roundball barrels.

If your barrel rifling is shallow it may shoot very accuretly with a unpatched Minie' ball.

The catch in accuracy is there are many different styles of Minie' balls and they come in several different diameters.
Most agree, in order to shoot accuretly, the bullet should not have over .003 total clearance to the bore. .002 total clearance is often better.

Before you sell or smash your expensive Parker Hale copy, try shooting it for accuracy with several different kinds of bullets.
You may be pleasantly surprised.

 

[dodger]

This is a very interesting thread.
I am surprised that Euroarms were still selling the rifles as"Parker Hales" long after the PH barrels had been used up .
Rather naughty in my opinion .

So now I begin to wonder about the rifles sold by Navy Arms as Parker Hale Whitworths .
In what manner do they deserve the moniker " Parker Hale " ?
Have Parker Hale diversified from making gun accessories into the manufacture of Whitworth replicas ?
Or is this rifle merely a replica of a replica of a Whitworth .
And who really makes it ?
( I think we all know who that is )

All this hype is unnecessary and infers quality via the Parker Hale connection , where no connection exists .
Bad form , in my opinion .

 

[TFoley]

Mornin', over there. I agree, bad form indeed, there were not THAT many P-H barrels handed over in the transfer, IIRC, and they are surely all long gone, even as far back as 2010.

We have to ask ourselves at what point it stops being a blatant frawk, and starts being, as you say, a replica replica. After all, YOU have a 'Whitworth' and a 'Mortimer' neither of which have been anywhere near England, in the same way as no replication of ANY 'good name' has been near their purported land of origin. LePage, Kuechenreuter, Charles Moore, Rogers and Spencer et al - you know what I mean.

The REAL Parker-Hales, made in Birmingham, entirely made in the factory there, will always attract premium prices, as is the nature of things that are much desired but no longer made by the original makers. Our local gun store has three genuine P-H long rifles on the rack at horrific prices, even by today's standards.

Caveat emptor - I always say. If in doubt about what is alleged to be a Parker-Hale anything, get permission to take out the barrel and to check. Even the part-frawks started off with genuine P-H, English-proofed barrels and locks.

To the OP, my sympathies, Sir, but you've been rooked. The best advice has been offered, and that is to try a few different diameter Miniés in it. My Musketooter - serial number 1167 - likes to shoot tight-loading Miniés that are only just easy to thumb down. Anything smaller and easier it hoses over the airspace like a Walmart sprinkler.

tac

 

[RhinoDave]

".....hoses over the airspace like a Walmart sprinkler" :rotf: Sounds alot like my Armi Jager Zouave.

 

[nkbj]

Got to be disappointing to end up not having the expected 48" progressive depth grooves.
Say, the US minie shooting war rifles usually had a six foot twist and supplied excellent accuracy, so maybe with the 66" twist yours could be something better than what most folks have.
:hmm:

 

[RiflemanZ]

As I understand it, Euroarms bought the rights to use the stamping as well as the remaining components produced in the UK. I agree, it is in very bad form to use a well respected name such as Parker Hale to sell an inferior replica of a replica. I wouldn't even be all that miffed if the price tag had been like $600-700, rather than the $1,000 +/- that it was...

To be totally honest with you as well I'm sort of miffed at Dixie GW as well. It would have made all the difference to put a (Euroarms) somewhere in the description, as it IS a Euroarms gun...

 

[TFoley]

I'm going to look into this a bit more deeply - here in UK Euroarms products are clearly stamped up with Euroarms on them.

I'll look at a couple of their guns that appear on our range from time to time on the off-chance that one might be a 'Porker-Hole'.

I'll also give Ken at Kranks a call and see what HE has to say about it. He is the BP maven at Kranks, BTW, and is highly respected among the community as a straight guy.

tac

 

[Sasquash]

Hi all,

Several years ago I had one of those Parker Hale marked Euroarms 3 band Enfield....and was advertised as "Euroarms with Parker Hale markings".

The wood was finished with a polyurethane barnish, and the stock was very oversized as was the barrel.

Nowadays I have another Euroarms (of America), and it is completely different: oil finished, and both wood and barrel are thinner....and inside the lock you can find parts with P-H markings, but obviously made of cast (almost raw).

 

[ResearchPress]

...a rifle I was expecting to shoot minie balls, but has a twist meant for patched round balls...

The original Pattern 1853 (three band Enfield) - and the Parker-Hale repros of it - had a rifling twist of 1 in 78. Slow twist does not always mean PRB.

Give your rifle a go - I'd try one of the Minie bullets with a deep base cavity first.

David