Exceptional Colonial American Period Flintlock Ketland & Co.Trade Gun

[PathfinderNC]

I found this while looking at info about Ketland Trade Guns.
It is quite an amazingly preserved piece from circa 1760, as per the write-up.
I am wondering how it could survive so well.
I cant believe it was sold for only $2950.
https://aagaines.com/product/exceptional-colonial-american-period-flintlock-ketland-co-trade-gun/

 

[hanshi]

I found this while looking at info about Ketland Trade Guns.
It is quite an amazingly preserved piece from circa 1760, as per the write-up.
I am wondering how it could survive so well.
I cant believe it was sold for only $2950.
https://aagaines.com/product/exceptional-colonial-american-period-flintlock-ketland-co-trade-gun/

You are righteously spot on, my friend. It could be mistaken for a modern build to those not familiar with flinters. How did that one slip throught the "hard use" crowd?

 

[springfield art]

I found this while looking at info about Ketland Trade Guns.
It is quite an amazingly preserved piece from circa 1760, as per the write-up.
I am wondering how it could survive so well.
I cant believe it was sold for only $2950.
https://aagaines.com/product/exceptional-colonial-american-period-flintlock-ketland-co-trade-gun/

What an interesting post! The 'take-down' feature is exceptional. I guess 3 grand is an OK price, but I'd think more along the 5 grand level. Thanks for posting.

 

[RB POWELL]

I found this while looking at info about Ketland Trade Guns.
It is quite an amazingly preserved piece from circa 1760, as per the write-up.
I am wondering how it could survive so well.
I cant believe it was sold for only $2950.
https://aagaines.com/product/exceptional-colonial-american-period-flintlock-ketland-co-trade-gun/

Quite a piece of history there.

 

[Brokennock]

That really is exceptional. Not just that it survived in such great shape, but that takedown feature for shipping is brilliant, and I love the design of the rear sight.
Thank you very much for sharing this with us.

 

[Conquerordie]

I'm not so sure. The take down feature was found on expensive guns of the time. This is not an expensive gun. Why go through the work for a firearm that would have been put together quickly? It's the first I've ever seen like that.

 

[Notchy Bob]

Thanks for posting this!

it is a very interesting gun, for all of the reasons enumerated above (condition, two-piece forend, really cool rear sight, etc.). Without looking it up, I seem to recall Charles Hanson mentioning a two-piece stock in The Northwest Gun but I think he said the joint was “telescoped,” such that one piece slid inside he other.

The condition is exceptional, leading one to believe it might have been re-stocked, but I don’t know. There is a missing chip of wood behind the tang, and the inside of the divot appears to be the same dark color as the outside of the stock. The wood inside that ferrule at the joint in the forend is much lighter. Maybe original wood, but refinished?

I see that the dealer also has an 1874 Sharps rifle that has been “lettered,” and is priced at $17,500, so he’s not ignorant of market values.

The Ketland is a remarkable gun in many ways. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

Notchy Bob

 

[dave_person]

Hi,
The write up about this gun is total BS. Before anyone goes gaga over this gun please read Joe Puleo's paper on the Ketlands I've linked to below

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/rppublishing/rplibrary/rpl008-ketland-guns-in-america.pdf
According to Joe's research, there is no evidence that the William Ketland discussed in the write up was ever in the gun trade. The first Ketland gun maker was Thomas starting in 1766. Ketland & Co wasn't a thing until the 1780s. So absolutely nothing "colonial" about this gun. I believe it is a restock by someone in the 19th century using older Ketland export parts that could be from any time from the 1780s to 1800. The restock could have been done in America parts salvaged from a Ketland gun and perhaps several others such as a Brown Bess musket. It is cleverly made and unusual but no colonial gun.

dave

 

[Fitzhugh Williams]

I just don't understand how taking off part of the fore stock makes a gun any shorter? Do they take off the barrel as well? Looks more like a creative way of repairing a damaged fore stock. And I have never seen a sight that far forward on the barrel.

 

[rich pierce]

As Dave outlined above, this gun has a not a usual early trade gun. Until JV Puleo outlined the real history of the Ketlands in the gun trade, and even after, there’s been a lot of declaring that Ketland-marked guns for sale were earlier than is actually possible. I saw this gun for sale long ago and decided it was too far out of bounds for fitting into what we know of English export trade guns.

 

[Notchy Bob]

I think the idea behind the two-piece forestock is that if you want to dismount the barrel from the stock, as for a thorough cleaning, you only need to remove the tang screw and the one pin closest to the breech. The upper part of the fore stock can be left attached to the barrel.

I don’t see how it makes the gun any shorter, either, although it will allow using a shorter plank for the main part of the stock, and a second, very small piece for the upper end of the fore stock. I suppose if you need to pack the gun up for transport, it could be broken down into two pieces which would be shorter than the overall length of the complete gun.

This is an odd gun.

Notchy Bob

 

[rich pierce]

I think the idea behind the two-piece forestock is that if you want to dismount the barrel from the stock, as for a thorough cleaning, you only need to remove the tang screw and the one pin closest to the breech. The upper part of the fore stock can be left attached to the barrel.

I don’t see how it makes the gun any shorter, either, although it will allow using a shorter plank for the main part of the stock, and a second, very small piece for the upper end of the fore stock. I suppose if you need to pack the gun up for transport, it could be broken down into two pieces which would be shorter than the overall length of the complete gun.

This is an odd gun.

Notchy Bob

It’s an oddball but pretty cool. I’m not discrediting it as a gun or an interesting original; just the proposed dating.

 

[Tumbledown]

I just don't understand how taking off part of the fore stock makes a gun any shorter? Do they take off the barrel as well? Looks more like a creative way of repairing a damaged fore stock. And I have never seen a sight that far forward on the barrel.

Yes, the barrel is pinned to the fore but not the rest of the stock. The barrel is held in the main stock by the splice and the breech screw. It's not designed to be disassembled every day, but is practical for travel where it can be packed in a trunk.

Takedowns are rare, but they do exist.

 

[Rancocas]

If ya'll would go back and look at my post of May 22, 2023 in the "Original Antique Firearms" section you will see photos of my original Austrian fowler that was made by Jakob Senger in Vienna c. 1810-1820. It also has a two-piece stock made with a section that slips under the other side, similar to this Ketland.

Fascinating.

 

[Rudyard]

I think the idea behind the two-piece forestock is that if you want to dismount the barrel from the stock, as for a thorough cleaning, you only need to remove the tang screw and the one pin closest to the breech. The upper part of the fore stock can be left attached to the barrel.

I don’t see how it makes the gun any shorter, either, although it will allow using a shorter plank for the main part of the stock, and a second, very small piece for the upper end of the fore stock. I suppose if you need to pack the gun up for transport, it could be broken down into two pieces which would be shorter than the overall length of the complete gun.

This is an odd gun.

Notchy Bob

Few Guns where made as a takedown before the advent of better roads in England and travel by coach more common , Wicker cases often sold for the gun but the makeing longer guns to fit cased sets comes more into fashion and as short barrels came more in vouge,' Half stocks'& double guns proper came more prevelant but some thought a sporting gun looked odd at a half stock so one way to suit both opinions the joined fore ends made' anew' or old pieces adapted . generally both ends of the join where faced with brass or silver .I did one recently ,to suit a discerning patron. (PITA) job not his fault but its simpler done during the making the gun rather than an added feature .I've not seen the gun in question .Just trolled I saw it whatever the reason its just a common plug .The only Ketland & Co in Bailiey & Nies ' English gun makers' gives Ketland William1808 to 1831 Steel house lane & Whittle St Brum . D W Bailey is well known, Doug Nie was cataloger for Weller & Dufty's Auction house also in Brum . .Kit Ravenshear made extensive research on that Family in its US family links as agents But if he published it I know not . This is not my disclaimer that the family had no earlier US contacts but non listed & shown non others in the' & Co style' I've locks by Ketland & Co brilliant locks . its a natural tendency to give date much earlier than actual .What should be born in mind is. Whatever the fashion for London Dandies John & Joe Manton et al top makers (Who as well produced lots of military contract guns ) but the trade made whatever style the customer wanted even Lancaster long rifles for export ! & provincial buyers as not all wanted high fashion. Like Sheffield Cutlers who like Wolstenholme's had US agents . Their now pulled down factory was called ' Washington Works 'Freddy James was the foreman he & Ivy set up on Broom spring lane great couple but gone now .My Blade smither was next door in the same yard he moved to free rent at the Kelham Island Industrial Museum Georgey Watts all gone now . Rudyard

 

[duca]

very cool

 

[Jennakins]

I have a Ketland fowler that was passed down to me from my father. I am full of questions abour cleaning it up and what I actually have and if it is correct and complete. It appears to be converted to percussion at some point. The ram rod looks like it has a bullet casing on it but when pulled off it apprears there is another piece of brass that is for cleaning the barrel.. The front site is a cut off coin and the rear is a V cut into the barrel. I have so many questions on this gun and have great lots on T Ketland Co.
Jenna

 

[Jennakins]

 

[Rudyard]

View attachment 317635

Dear Jenna

View attachment 317635

Dear Jenna the light on the side plate makes it hard to discern, the' in the white' ie bright barrel wouldn't be typical .The fore pipe evidently not original and the lock side cant be seen .other than that it looks right enough if obviously the fore wood has been cut away a view of the lock & side plate and if possible the inside view of the lock and any proof stamps on the breach end & the makers usually Elegant Signature on the lock. From what I can see its right enough bit old fashioned for the 'And Co 'but then as now the customer was always right . It would appear to be converted from flintlock to percussion but that was normal enough . Trust that helps.
Regards Rudyard
PS If you run clearer pics by the 'original gun' slot you might get' Felt Wad' who's opinion may clarify it more R

 

[Jennakins]

Thank you Rudyard.
I will get to posting pictures. I did take steel wool to the barrel to clean it up a bit it has a lot of surface rust from not being cared for in the past. I need to figure out what to do to the barrel to preserve it from future rust. I know this gun was built in Birlmingham London UK by Thomas Ketland before his son took over the business and started imporing through Philadelphia I believe it was. The rest is a hot mess of what I actually have. I will fload up a bunch of puictures for your review.