Excessive Fouling

[Dillon W.]

Hello gentlemen! Before I start rambling about this, I did do quite a bit of searching through old threads about this and it DID clear the air a great deal on my issue. But, left me wondering.
Finally got my hands on some real black! And before I go into detail I’ll list my rifle details and loading that I have been shooting til now, but may just go back to. Caplock GPR, .500” on the money bore, .522” groove depth (I’m a machinist so I have the appropriate measuring tools) using a TOTW standard 6x.75 nipple, CCI #11 caps, 85gr Pyrodex RS, .018” pillow ticking lubed with TOTW mink oil, and .495” swaged balls. Load shoots fantastic with no swabbing period.
So, yesterday, I go out with some FFg goex and start at 65gr of powder and fire 3 shots. I dang near couldn’t get the 2nd and 3rd prb’s down the bore! I went up to 70gr to fire another 3 shot group and only fired two more balls because it was so difficult to load them. I thought I was about to break my ramrod! I do not use a range rod when I’m shooting because I’m only interested in developing hunting loads and I shoot only with what I’d have when I’m out hunting.
So I’ve read a few things that have me wondering. Like, not a large enough powder charge causing excessive fouling. Possibly not a tight enough patch/ball combo, which I really don’t see being the issue. Humidity?? Maybe. The temp down here in lower Arkansas was about 95 and the humidity was probably 75 to 80 percent at the time. Still is this morning…
Anyways guys, and insight would be greatly appreciated. I’d really like to be able to use my goex, I’m really digging the way it sounds and smells. And not to mention the unbelievably fast ignition compared to pyrodex

 

[Kansas Jake]

A couple of things come to mind. 2f black powder is a little more dirty than 3f, although I shoot a lot of 2f in rifles. Spit patch seems to do a decent job of keeping powder fouling soft compared to some patch lubes. You may find you just need to swab between shots to be able to load easily. As you noted weather conditions can make some difference. A slightly less thick patch may help if you don't want to swab as much, but your accuracy may suffer.

 

[Dillon W.]

I’d really like to keep my accuracy lol. And if it comes down to having to swab between shots I’d just abandon goex all together due to hunting and the nature of the way I shoot

 

[Bnewberry]

Humidity can make a big difference in the way fouling acts. In one rifle I have found Goex creates a harder fouling than Swiss. Another rifle doesn’t care.

Spit Patches, or a lube with more water might help.

 

[Horse]

Mike had a similar issue with his GPR and cured it in his youtube video

 

[Griz44Mag]

With your groove depth as deep as it is, you are probably not getting a good bore seal.
The .018 patch with a .495 ball could be tearing as you load. Try and recover some of your patches and take a picture of them.
I would suggest dropping your ball size to .490 and your patches try a .015.
There is no reason to have such a hard loading ball and patch, your combination just takes up too much space.
.495+.018+.018 = .531 - This exceeds your total available space by .009
Back off a bit and see what happens. From what I see - you are too big on your ball-patch combination.

 

[Dillon W.]

With your groove depth as deep as it is, you are probably not getting a good bore seal.
The .018 patch with a .495 ball could be tearing as you load. Try and recover some of your patches and take a picture of them.
I would suggest dropping your ball size to .490 and your patches try a .015.
There is no reason to have such a hard loading ball and patch, your combination just takes up too much space.
.495+.018+.018 = .531 - This exceeds your total available space by .009
Back off a bit and see what happens. From what I see - you are too big on your ball-patch combination.

Very interesting. My loading that I stated in the beginning of my post evolved from originally being a 490 with a .015 patch. My patches were blowing out, accuracy wasn’t there. I went to a 490 with .02” patching and fixed everything except the very first shot on a clean bore would be off by 6” in any direction. So I went to a 495 with .018 and solved the issue. But now with goex here we are. Is there a possibility with the faster flash of black powder vs pyrodex, that it may deform the ball in such a manner it would “fill out” the grooves?

 

[SOLANCO]

I am with the earlier poster who suggested 3F.

 

[TreeMan]

Here is my .2 cents. If you are only looking for hunting loads and only gonna use your factory ramrod then every shot should be from a clean barrel. Your going to most likely hunt with a clean barrel not a fouled barrel. Clean between shots. Every shot. That way your clean barrel accuracy is achieved and it eliminates loading issues. You’re not going to walk into the woods with three shots worth of fouling in your barrel planning on having to load. If this doesn’t work for you then heavy lube on your patch or a smaller patched ball combo.

 

[dave951]

A couple things, try 3f and standard Goex is just a brand name. Of the Goex line, try Old Eynsford 3f and of the Schutzen line, there's Swiss.

 

[leadhoarder]

Here is my .2 cents. If you are only looking for hunting loads and only gonna use your factory ramrod then every shot should be from a clean barrel. Your going to most likely hunt with a clean barrel not a fouled barrel. Clean between shots. Every shot. That way your clean barrel accuracy is achieved and it eliminates loading issues. You’re not going to walk into the woods with three shots worth of fouling in your barrel planning on having to load. If this doesn’t work for you then heavy lube on your patch or a smaller patched ball combo.

This makes sense if you are a hunter. I know my squeaky clean barrel shot out of my renegade prints a few inches high and left of the group it prints with a fouled barrel.

 

[Brokennock]

I would try 3f. I found that in my shot loads, which definitely didn't seal the bore as well as my round ball load,,,, when I 1st started working with them, in my smoothbore, the 2f noticeably fouled the bore more than 3f.

Also, I find if I reload quickly after the shot I get less crust and trouble seating the next ball. If I wait around to load things get crusty if not tight, and if I keep doing that things will get tight. I shoot, quickly wipe the pan and frizzen with alcohol and reload. Then let the barrel cool, if I want each shot from a cool barrel.

 

[NorthFork]

Post #6 by Grizz44mag is spot on. Too tight of a load in my opinion.

 

[user 34300]

Caplock "GPR" it probably has a rough bore. Scope it and see. You will likely find the lands have marks from the drill. From the pictures I have seen it does not look like the Lymans are reamed, polished or coiled after drilling. Lead lapping from the breech will fix it and give the opportunity to lap in a choke. A well finished bore with a choke that is cleared by the short starter distance is an amazing thing. Loading is super easy and accuracy is excellent.

"Mink oil"... Oils do not dissolve fouling. Water based lubes do. Most use oily stuff for hunting and watery stuff for target shooting.

Swabbing between shots is necessary for top accuracy. The bore condition is more consistent if you swab. Use a slightly damp loose patch that bunches up on the return stroke. It only takes a few seconds to do so, and accuracy will be better, loading will be easy all day long

Shooting all day and not swabbing is a "unicorn" situation. I guess it can happen with a looser combo and the right lubes. You will not get the best possible accuracy.

 

[Old Hawkeye]

What Grizz44mag said! I shoot .490 ball, .018" pillow ticking patch, TOTW Mink Oil lube, on top of 60 grains FFFg Goex. I've shot 10 times in a row without swabbing & loading difficulty is non-existent. Green Mountain barrel, 1 in 66 twist that I polished the bore on. Last time I shot it put the last 3 rounds in a 2" circle at 50 yards. The Investarm made GPR's have a rough bore, so I would also polish it with some Turtle Wax Chrome Polish & Rust Remover, as well.

 

[EC121]

I use a .480 ball in my 50s and a .020-.022 patch. Heavy canvas with #9 Plus for targets. Mink oil softened with non-hardening coconut oil(mainly because that was in the cabinet). for hunting. It is accurate, easy to load, and the grooves are filled. Patches could be re-used.

 

[Griz44Mag]

I think from what everyone here is saying - if you want to find the holy grail for your gun, it will be for this one gun and may very well not work for the next 5 that look the same. For me, finding that sweet spot with each and every gun you have is a huge part of the fun and satisfaction of making one shoot the way you want it to.
Have fun, and keep us posted on what you are experimenting with.

 

[Dillon W.]

Well I went out earlier this time the only thing I changed was patches. I broke out some bridgers best .015’s and to my surprise the patches didn’t blow. I’ve had that issue with them with pyrodex and even with ticking sometimes the very first patch would blow for some reason. Anyways I still had loading issues but I think we’ve settled that. I’ll just swab. I also polished the bore when I cleaned exactly the way Mike said to in the vid. I’ve always spotted little tiny tears in my patches and cleaning patches. Not much just a little. Here’s today’s first three patches

 

[Brokennock]

Maybe I read your o.p. wrong.
The load you originally posted using pyrodex worked fine, correct?
The only thing you changed was the powder and you started having fouling issues, correct?


If the problem is a rough bore, or too tight a load, or some other mechanical issue,,,,, I would think the problem would have been evident when using the pyrodex as well.

But, I learned something. Apparently hundreds of years of shooters had it all wrong with their fat/oil based lubes. These never actually kept fouling soft, because they can't dissolve it, only rust inviting water based lube can possibly get the job done. Man, what a bunch of dopes our forefathers were.

 

[Dillon W.]

Maybe I read your o.p. wrong.
The load you originally posted using pyrodex worked fine, correct?
The only thing you changed was the powder and you started having fouling issues, correct?


If the problem is a rough bore, or too tight a load, or some other mechanical issue,,,,, I would think the problem would have been evident when using the pyrodex as well.

Kinda what I thought