Exploding .58 Minies ?

[Whitworth]

As referenced by other members, in 1863 the Union Army issued what was called the "Gardiner Musket Shell" — a .58 minie bullet with an explosive charge inside. The idea was if fired over the heads of dug-in troops, it would explode over their heads and shower them with bullet fragments. Further, it was thought that a soldier hit by such a bullet in a place that would only wound — was more likely to be killed if the bullet then exploded inside his body. In any case, there was no way to control when or where such a fired bullet would explode. The idea was very unpopular with the men.

One of my great great grandfathers served in the Second N.H. Regiment of Volunteer Infantry. Here is an excerpt from the regimental history that describes what happened to a couple of the men in The Peach Orchard during the Battle of Gettysburg when they came under Rebel artillery fire:


…Several cartridge boxes were exploded. A shell struck and burst on the box of Corporal Thomas Bignall, of Company C. The cartridges were driven into his body and fired, and for nearly half a minute the devilish " musket shells " issued at Washington were exploding in his quivering form. But death was mercifully quick. The next moment a fragment of shell explored the cartridge box of Sergeant James M. House, of Company I. The rapidity with which he tore off the infernal machine hanging by his side was astonishing, and he escaped with only a severe wound…”

I think I would be bothered more by the all the powder burning from up to 40 cartridges (at about 60 or more grains each) in my cartridge box then the piddling little bursting charge in the exploding bullets. A burning paper cartridge would drive a bullet nowhere, much less piece the skin.

 

[Whitworth]

Thinking they'd go off if they hit a steel plate target. Not something for a close-up experiment, though, nor as previously posted - by ramming down the barrel. Dixie catalog was where I remember this from, now that it was posted.

Way, way back when I was a railroader I would sometimes find myself alone for the 100 mile trip from Brunswick to Cumberland in the caboose. A lot of time was spent killing time so I used to take my Crossman CO2 target pistol along for plinking when stopped and waiting for another train to crossover or for some other reason. One day I got the bright idea to stick a barnburner match head in the back of a .22 pellet and shoot it backwards against a railroad car Made a crack, a little smoke and left a scorch mark. New pastime invented but short lived with new work rules, they started running short crews and cabooses were eliminated by new electronic gadgets to monitor rear brake pressure, detect hot boxes, sticking brakes and dragging equipment By now the railroad wasn't much fun anymore so left shortly thereafter to pursue a career in aviation. That's another whole story with lots of stories

 

[oldwood]

From about age 10 , explosives were an intrinsic part of some kid's lives , in the 1950's. There was black powder , carbide gas, dynamite , bushels of fireworks imported from Ontario , Canada fishing trips. Coal miner parents taught their kids , early on , how to be safe using them , along with firearms. In the late 1950's , imported Dixie Catalog m/l Belgian made African trade shotguns began showing up. Black powder sports were beginning .

 

[ryoung14]

Don't bounce the range rod...

 

[beyu]

I think I would be bothered more by the all the powder burning from up to 40 cartridges (at about 60 or more grains each) in my cartridge box then the piddling little bursting charge in the exploding bullets. A burning paper cartridge would drive a bullet nowhere, much less piece the skin.

That may well be. I have certainly heard more than once that if you throw a cartridge (modern or black powder) in a fire, it will explode with little force and is of no danger.

BUT — the quote I referenced about the exploding "musket shells" was from the official history of the regiment written by someone who was there to see it. I suppose the fatal wounds COULD have been caused by flying shrapnel from the exploding artillery shell — and not the ammunition in the cartridge box. If so, the author mistook what he saw.

 

[Rudyard]

Explodeing shells where used by Captain Norton & John Jacobs and one developed for the 53 Enfield I tried them Some one might have been Lovell or Metford did divise an exploding shell but found if nose filled with charcoal it flew better. I tried the 22 in the nose bit . made moulds to cast the hollows hilti gun & cattle killer cartridges. But dosnt work in earth very well. might do better with wooden boxes . & yes don't ram too hard . Interesting notion but not to practicle beyound a try .
Rudyard

 

[hanshi]

Blow up a deer with a minie?! A terrorist once tried to blow up a school bus and failed. He burned his lips on the tailpipe.

 

[user 48702]

He

Blow up a deer with a minie?! A terrorist once tried to blow up a school bus and failed. He burned his lips on the tailpipe.

Must have been a member of that hillbilly splinter group "NoTeefa"

 

[user 48702]

That may well be. I have certainly heard more than once that if you throw a cartridge (modern or black powder) in a fire, it will explode with little force and is of no danger.

BUT — the quote I referenced about the exploding "musket shells" was from the official history of the regiment written by someone who was there to see it. I suppose the fatal wounds COULD have been caused by flying shrapnel from the exploding artillery shell — and not the ammunition in the cartridge box. If so, the author mistook what he saw.

This is from a post I made a couple of months ago regarding injuries sustained by unspent cartridges in a fire.

While assigned as a CID Agent at MCB Camp Lejeune, NC in the early 1980s, I had a case where two Marines were injured at a training range in the Verona Loop area of the base. A brush fire started at one of the ranges and junior troops were ordered to extinguish the fire as best as they could. About all they had to fight the fire with was a few shovels and most were just flailing the ground with shelter halves. I received a call that two of those Marines were injured and had been transported to the Naval Hospital with wounds. The MPs referred the incident to our office since it was reported that the injured had suffered bullet wounds from unspent cartridges in the fire. Upon arrival, it was determined that projectiles from unspent cartridges had wounded the two Marines, one received a 5.56 round just above the wrist, lodged between the ulnar and radius, the other Marine had a round lodged against a rib on his flank. ER Doc stated that if the rib hadn't stopped the round, it would have more than likely caused internal damage to liver, kidney, etc. I went out to the range where the incident occurred and found quite a few unfired cartridges that had detonated in the brush fire. Since military primers are crimped in the pocket, they are less likely to blow and all the pressure exits the mouth of the case. Here is a photo of one that was recovered from the range.

 

[Whitworth]

Damn, I've seen a few fire popped rounds but that ones really cool. Wonder if the sealant applied to the case mouth for waterproofing had anything with holding onto the bullet and allowing pressure to build up to the point of swelling the case before releasing the bullet?

 

[user 48702]

Damn, I've seen a few fire popped rounds but that ones really cool. Wonder if the sealant applied to the case mouth for waterproofing had anything with holding onto the bullet and allowing pressure to build up to the point of swelling the case before releasing the bullet?

I doubt it, the sealant is basically tar based and would have melted before the cartridge cooked off. I believe the powder in use for the 5.56mm at that time was WC-844, which is a fairly fast powder. Some blown 7.62mm cases were found in the general area, but we didn't receive any reports of troops being injured. We found several blown cases, all similar in shape, but most were swollen and deformed. I guess the heat was just right to produce the ball shape at the shoulder.

 

[user 51067]

Extensive studies were done with regard to this in "Hatcher's Notebook" (by General Julius Hatcher).
Kinda NOT muzzleloader stuff, though.

 

[Cpt Flint]

Extensive studies were done with regard to this in "Hatcher's Notebook" (by General Julius Hatcher).
Kinda NOT muzzleloader stuff, though.

Julian not Julius.

 

[beyu]

This is from a post I made a couple of months ago regarding injuries sustained by unspent cartridges in a fire.

While assigned as a CID Agent at MCB Camp Lejeune, NC in the early 1980s, I had a case where two Marines were injured at a training range in the Verona Loop area of the base. A brush fire started at one of the ranges and junior troops were ordered to extinguish the fire as best as they could. About all they had to fight the fire with was a few shovels and most were just flailing the ground with shelter halves. I received a call that two of those Marines were injured and had been transported to the Naval Hospital with wounds. The MPs referred the incident to our office since it was reported that the injured had suffered bullet wounds from unspent cartridges in the fire. Upon arrival, it was determined that projectiles from unspent cartridges had wounded the two Marines, one received a 5.56 round just above the wrist, lodged between the ulnar and radius, the other Marine had a round lodged against a rib on his flank. ER Doc stated that if the rib hadn't stopped the round, it would have more than likely caused internal damage to liver, kidney, etc. I went out to the range where the incident occurred and found quite a few unfired cartridges that had detonated in the brush fire. Since military primers are crimped in the pocket, they are less likely to blow and all the pressure exits the mouth of the case. Here is a photo of one that was recovered from the range.
View attachment 138812
Very interesting. Thanks for the post.

SO — we all know now that that stuff about bullets tossed in a campfire and popping off harmlessly is NOT necessarily accurate. Depending upon the ammunition, of course.

CAUTION is the order of the day, as are all things firearms related.

And just MAYBE — my earlier posting with the quote from the official history of the Second N.H. Regiment — might be accurate also?

 

[user 48702]

I wouldn't doubt the historical account at all, sounds plausible. Just adding an account of injuries I personally investigated where live rounds cooked off in a brush fire.

 

[ResearchPress]

Explodeing shells where used by Captain Norton & John Jacobs and one developed for the 53 Enfield I tried them Some one might have been Lovell or Metford did divise an exploding shell but found if nose filled with charcoal it flew better. . . .

In the UK, William Metford designed an explosive bullet in 1856 and it beat other designs in initial trials. It later competed against Colonel Boxer's and General Jacobs' shells and defeated them, and was finally adopted by the British Government in 1863. It was however short lived and the Convention of St. Petersburgh, in 1868, declared against explosive bullets, and in March, 1869, it was declared obsolete.

Metford found with his experiments in developing a percussion shell for the .577 Enfield that he obtained superior accuracy with a hollow point bullet. He took several money prizes in matches, before publishing his findings (a lengthy letter appears in the report and proceedings of the 1864 Rifle Conference). The hole down the apex of the front of the bullet was about .22in. diameter and .70 deep. The hole was stopped up with "any light substance. Gutta-percha cord is perhaps the simplest and easiest to put in and cut off."

The Snider, the breech loading successor to the muzzle loading Enfield, used a hollow nosed bullet.

David

 

[Rudyard]

Looks like my memory served me right on Wm Ellis Metford. No reason we cant duplicate his bullet & perhaps improuve our Enfield scores ? Its as much the Jersey lads or George Savage didn.t make some . Iv'e been toying with makeing a Captain Nortons 7 studded hollow acorns for the Baker I have the rifle & Iv.e made Jacobs moulds so its do able.
Might pass on the exploding bit but it should wake up the markers ,Plenty of emmense effort gone in too getting to shoot your match utterly wasted on indifferent local marking crew more intrerested in their trannies than paying attention.
Regards Rudyard

 

[TFoley]

Read also about Jacobs and his special rifle that fired a pair of exploding cartridges - https://americansocietyofarmscollec...ploding-projectile-Civil-War-Carlson-v120.pdf

 

[toot]

who would want to blow up a deer? oh I know.

the same kid who would pull off the wings on a fly.

 

[shorthair]

This is from a post I made a couple of months ago regarding injuries sustained by unspent cartridges in a fire.

While assigned as a CID Agent at MCB Camp Lejeune, NC in the early 1980s, I had a case where two Marines were injured at a training range in the Verona Loop area of the base. A brush fire started at one of the ranges and junior troops were ordered to extinguish the fire as best as they could. About all they had to fight the fire with was a few shovels and most were just flailing the ground with shelter halves. I received a call that two of those Marines were injured and had been transported to the Naval Hospital with wounds. The MPs referred the incident to our office since it was reported that the injured had suffered bullet wounds from unspent cartridges in the fire. Upon arrival, it was determined that projectiles from unspent cartridges had wounded the two Marines, one received a 5.56 round just above the wrist, lodged between the ulnar and radius, the other Marine had a round lodged against a rib on his flank. ER Doc stated that if the rib hadn't stopped the round, it would have more than likely caused internal damage to liver, kidney, etc. I went out to the range where the incident occurred and found quite a few unfired cartridges that had detonated in the brush fire. Since military primers are crimped in the pocket, they are less likely to blow and all the pressure exits the mouth of the case. Here is a photo of one that was recovered from the range.
View attachment 138812

If the cartridge is just laying on the surface when burned then the primer normally pops out but the slug doesn't exit the case but if you bury the base of the case in firm earth then the slug will exit at a good clip and could be a definite hazzard.